PDA

View Full Version : 2013 Draft Discussion



Bengals1181
02-09-2013, 09:21 AM
Kaba, et al, curious to see how you guys are ranking certain positions.

Here's what I'm seeing for the safeties (and admittedly, this is slightly influenced by the type of safety the Bengals IMO need):


1a. Kenny Vacarro - IMO far and away the best coverage safety in the draft. Almost like having an extra corner on the field. Texas also moved him around a lot almost like a Troy Polamalu.

1b. Matt Elam - a guy that's really grown on me. A big hitter, but like Vacarro can also line up in the slot in man coverage and get the job done. I've heard comparisons to Brian Dawkins.


To me, the clear cut top 2 safeties. These next 3, could probably be interchangeable depending on what a specific team is looking for.


2a. DJ Swearinger - love the swagger he plays with, though needs to keep it in check. A former corner who can also line up in the slot on WR's though not as successfully as Vacarro and Elam. Can also lay the wood.

2b. Tony Jefferson - very good in run support and decent in pass coverage. Has the size you want in today's safeties.

2c. Eric Reid - I'm certain some will have him higher, and a year ago he was my favorite safety. Doesn't quite show up as much on tape this year though and LSU seems to have been using him more as a centerfield safety than an in-the-box/slot safety. Could be as high as 3 depending on the team needs.



The Best of the Rest:


3. Bacarri Rambo - a solid centerfield FS. Would be higher in a lesser class.

4. TJ Mcdonald - another centerfield type safety. Solid in run support, but not a guy who can line up in man coverage.

5. Johnathan Cyprien - he seems to be the media darling lately. I don't see it. He doesn't do anything bad, but he doesn't blow you away on tape either, and was facing FBS talent.

vancemeek
02-09-2013, 11:17 AM
Depends on who you ask. One of the writers for PFF tweeted his safety rankings yesterday and had Vacarro, Cyprien, and a converted David Amerson as his top 3. Elam was around 7th. Ried was a little past that.

Bengals1181
02-09-2013, 11:26 AM
Depends on who you ask. One of the writers for PFF tweeted his safety rankings yesterday and had Vacarro, Cyprien, and a converted David Amerson as his top 3. Elam was around 7th. Ried was a little past that.

PFF has interesting stats, but they have very weird metrics for evaluating the worth of a player.

vancemeek
02-09-2013, 04:14 PM
Agreed, so I don't take it as the gospel. I have seen a lot of the "draft experts" and scouting guys on Twitter who are putting Cyprien into the late 1st-early 2nd round. Vacarro is pretty well universally the #1 safety.

Bengals1181
02-09-2013, 05:41 PM
Agreed, so I don't take it as the gospel. I have seen a lot of the "draft experts" and scouting guys on Twitter who are putting Cyprien into the late 1st-early 2nd round. Vacarro is pretty well universally the #1 safety.

Yea I may be very wrong on Cyprien, but he just doesn't wow me.

KabaModernFan
02-09-2013, 06:56 PM
Don't sleep on Phillip Thomas out of Fresno State. He's strong in coverage and a suitable run defender as well. He's very heady and always seems to be around the ball, where he then has the skills to make the interception and do some damage returning it as well. I have him slotted as a late second-round guy right now, and probably my #5 safety overall behind Vaccaro, Reid, Elam, and Cyprien.

Bengals1181
02-09-2013, 07:37 PM
yea I've watched Thomas. He misses A LOT of tackles. He's got the talent to play in the NFL, but I don't think he'll give you the results you need.

tubbs1518
02-09-2013, 09:20 PM
I want a pass coverage S, not an in the box S. We already have an in the box S in Nelson. Give me either Cyprien, Thomas or Rambo.

wxwax
02-09-2013, 10:31 PM
Sounds like you need Harrison Smith. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing004.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Bengals1181
02-09-2013, 10:36 PM
I want a pass coverage S, not an in the box S. We already have an in the box S in Nelson. Give me either Cyprien, Thomas or Rambo.


Nelson is a center fielder like Rambo. He does a good job of flying up to the line, but he doesn't play in the box.

Ideally they need a vacarro Elam swearinger or Reid. A guy who can line up in the slot and play man coverage.

tubbs1518
02-09-2013, 10:43 PM
Nelson is a center fielder like Rambo. He does a good job of flying up to the line, but he doesn't play in the box.

Ideally they need a vacarro Elam swearinger or Reid. A guy who can line up in the slot and play man coverage.

I disagree completely. Nelson is an in the box guy. If you've watched Reid at all this year, you would know he isn't very good in coverage. Give me Rambo, Cyprien or Thomas. I think they give us exactly what we need.

mikesteelnation1
02-10-2013, 04:31 AM
These arguments about COMPLETE hypothetical thoughts I find highly amusing. The fact they involve 2 members of the same fan base, a rival, is golden!

I'm not a college guy, and I'll watch the combine (as worthless as that may be), and form my own opinions of who I'd like, and how I'd value the players. Unfortunately, my vote doesn't count. Colbert is gonna pick who he picks. It's why I don't care about college scouting. I dont like college football. It's why I pay ZERO attention to the mocks. I'll read others zealous opinions, and it will add to my draft experience, but it will change my end result of being a fan of the Steelers ZERO.

Love the back and forth, and love extrapolating about our future. Full well knowing it means nothing. Just love reading the opinions of those well versed in the college game about these potential draft picks. It's why the off-season and the league of parity truly drive why the NFL is so great..

Bengals1181
02-10-2013, 12:14 PM
I disagree completely. Nelson is an in the box guy. If you've watched Reid at all this year, you would know he isn't very good in coverage. Give me Rambo, Cyprien or Thomas. I think they give us exactly what we need.

Reid indeed was more a centerfielder this year like Nelson. He's played more man in the past. All of that was discussed in the first post...

Rambo is the exact same type of safety as Nelson.

Bengals1181
02-10-2013, 12:15 PM
These arguments about COMPLETE hypothetical thoughts I find highly amusing. The fact they involve 2 members of the same fan base, a rival, is golden!

I'm not a college guy, and I'll watch the combine (as worthless as that may be), and form my own opinions of who I'd like, and how I'd value the players. Unfortunately, my vote doesn't count. Colbert is gonna pick who he picks. It's why I don't care about college scouting. I dont like college football. It's why I pay ZERO attention to the mocks. I'll read others zealous opinions, and it will add to my draft experience, but it will change my end result of being a fan of the Steelers ZERO.

Love the back and forth, and love extrapolating about our future. Full well knowing it means nothing. Just love reading the opinions of those well versed in the college game about these potential draft picks. It's why the off-season and the league of parity truly drive why the NFL is so great..



thanks for contributing to the thread...I think?

tubbs1518
02-10-2013, 03:38 PM
If Nelson was a center fielder he would make more plays, but he doesn't. He may play "centerfield" but he isn't that good at it. Every time I see him in coverage or going after a ball in the air I cringe. He needs to play SS and in the box where he is a MUCH better player.

packa7x
02-11-2013, 12:57 PM
What do the college guys in here think of Zach Ertz from Stanford? One theory from many sources has GB letting Finley go and drafting Ertz. Everything I read is that he isn't what Coby Fleener was as far as a threat in the pass game, but is a much better all around player. Thoughts?

Colts01
02-11-2013, 01:23 PM
Will Denard Robinson be drafted as a qb? Anyone care to speculate if his game translates to the NFL?

Bengals1181
02-11-2013, 01:52 PM
IMO Robinson will ultimately be a RB, but it looks like he's gonna take a crack at WR first. I think QB is already off the table.

KabaModernFan
02-11-2013, 05:48 PM
What do the college guys in here think of Zach Ertz from Stanford? One theory from many sources has GB letting Finley go and drafting Ertz. Everything I read is that he isn't what Coby Fleener was as far as a threat in the pass game, but is a much better all around player. Thoughts?

I think that assessment, comparative to Fleener, is a pretty fair one. He is not as naturally gifted of a receiver as Fleener was coming out last year, but Ertz does look to be a much better blocker than he was. He's a stronger all-around tight end.


Will Denard Robinson be drafted as a qb? Anyone care to speculate if his game translates to the NFL?

Robinson definitely won't be a QB, but whether he ends up as a RB of WR remains to be seen. If Senior Bowl practices were any indication, he doesn't exactly seem to be taking to the new receiver position very well. A change of pace RB may be his easiest route to future success at the next level.

packa7x
02-11-2013, 06:31 PM
Thanks Kaba, so you'd classify the assements I posted as accurate?

KabaModernFan
02-12-2013, 12:20 AM
Thanks Kaba, so you'd classify the assements I posted as accurate?

I would say so. I like Ertz more than I liked Fleener last season. I would still prefer Tyler Eifert over Ertz though. Eifert is much more polished and gifted as a receiver, and is improving as a blocker.

mikesteelnation1
02-12-2013, 03:43 AM
thanks for contributing to the thread...I think?

I should have stated more, but I know my posts are too long at times. :)

My point was that I love the no one who isn't a gm in the NFL really knows anything about what's actually going to happen. It's why the draft for the NFL gets more interested viewers than any other American sports league championship series. It's why guys who are routinely wrong stay employed, year after year. No one but the GM's know a Damn thing.

Us regular folks debating it makes me more interested to know more, and seek out more. It sure did here. Safety is a sure fire draft need for us. Both our guys are old, and can't play forever. It's the most interested I've been in a position group ever, and we need a young replacement ss and fs, so I'm just looking at who's the best at doing what he's projected to play. No trying to fit a square peg, etc..

That said, and knowing its just my unwitting opinion, here's who I like at safety for the Steelers:

Vaccaro, far and away the best guy. He plays a little stiff, but with a big boy training staff, he can correct his flexibility issues. What he brings is a fervor to make the play. He's a man on fire once the ball is snapped. I'd love for him to learn from troy for a year.. only 1st rd worthy guy for the Steelers.

Many are high on Elam, I'm not so much. Technically, and physically he's a specimen. However the more tape I watch, the less I like him. He gives up and watches others too much. When he's not the primary defender, he sits and watches the play end like a spectator. Perhaps the right level of accountability from vets can correct that (levels he would certainly get with 2 pro bowl safeties in front of him), but he's a 2nd rounder to me. We won't burn the #17 pick on him.

After him its Jefferson, Reid, and cyprien for me. None before the 3rd, with swearinger in the 4th. That's 100% my opinion based on how we play defense and value the positions in it.

I really want vaccaro in the 1st, and if not Elam in the 2nd. Devastating forces, potentially, learning from a hof safety (perhaps the best ever at what he does), to pass some secrets forward .

Infinitely better class than we've seen in quite a while at safety...

packa7x
02-12-2013, 09:07 AM
I would say so. I like Ertz more than I liked Fleener last season. I would still prefer Tyler Eifert over Ertz though. Eifert is much more polished and gifted as a receiver, and is improving as a blocker.

I'm just thinking in terms of GB, if we do keep Finley, we need a guy who is a better pass catcher to be the blocking TE. We use Tom Crabtree who is an excellent blocker, but not much of a receiver. He got open a couple times when teams blanketed Finley and didn't expect Crabtree to run deep, but given our OL I think it would be a great weapon if we had 2 capable blocking TEs who also had very good hands. I think GB goes TE early this year...1st or 2nd round depending on what DL talent is available and what we do with Finley.

Bengals1181
02-12-2013, 08:45 PM
not even close to my first mock draft for the Bengals, but the first I've posted here.


Assuming Michael Johnson, Andre Smith, Terrence Newman, Wallace Gillberry, Robert Geathers and Adam Jones are back in some capacity.

1. S Matt Elam - I'd prefer Vacarro, but think he'll be gone. Elam allows them to upgrade the secondary with a guy who can lay the wood but also line up in the slot and cover TE's and WR's.

2a. WR Tavon Austin - the Bengals are looking for depth at both WR and RB. Austin accomplishes both while also upgrading the punt and kick return spots. A 5'9" WR isn't the most ideal with a 5'7" Andrew Hawkins already on the roster, but his versatility as a KR/PR and 6-7 snap a game speed RB (which they're looking for) makes him worth the pick and depth for competition at the #2 WR spot with Mohammed Sanu and Marvin Jones. His versatility allows the Bengals to kill 3 needs with one pick. He also fits great in the Bengals short passing scheme.

2b. LB Zaviar Gooden - the Bengals play a lot of nickel so they typically have only 2 LB's on the field, with Burfict nailing down one spot. Thomas Howard seems to be progressing well and looks to be resigned, but depth is still a must. Gooden is a player who could come in and play WLB from the get go if need be.

3. LB Gerald Hodges - the building of LB depth continues. Ideally Hodges will compete with the likes of Aaron Maybin, Dan Skuta, and others for the SLB spot. AKA the LB who won't be on the field 70% of the time anyway. May be able to play WLB as well but isn't overly speedy.

4. OT David Quessenberry - I suspect Dennis Rolland will be back as a backup tackle and guard, but if not Quessenberry is someone who IMO could be a real find as a RT. He also practiced at guard at the Senior Bowl and impressed. If Roland and Smith are both back, the Bengals likely won't take an OL at all and you could see a CB taken in this area.

5. RB Zac Stacy - the Bengals will have 2 RB spots open, and Austin will not be a fulltime RB as it is. I'd like to grab a guy like Felix Jones or Justin Forsett in free agency, but if not Stacy is a talented guy who will get pushed down the draft due to a deep RB class. He's more quick than fast, but possesses good speed for a 210lb back.

6a. CB Johnny Adams - I'm still surprised so many sites are down on Adams, who impresses every time I watch him. Assuming the re-signings above, the Bengals will have a solid 6 corners to take into camp (7 if they keep Jason Allen), but I imagine they will grab a corner at some point if nothing else for development.

6b. WR Emory Blake - experienced SEC WR who is talented enough to earn his way onto a roster.

7. LB Michael Mauti - one of my favorite LB's in the draft, but will be coming off what I believe is his 3rd ACL injury. His leadership skills alone make him worthy of a pick however who could earn a special teams spot.

tubbs1518
02-12-2013, 10:28 PM
We don't have a 7th round pick.

Bengals1181
02-12-2013, 11:02 PM
We don't have a 7th round pick.

True. Though there's a good chance they get a 7th round comp pick.

packa7x
02-13-2013, 09:34 AM
Does anyone have a clue what the compensatory pick formula is? I know it's somehow related to the contracts your FAs sign, but I don't know what the cutoffs are or how resigning guys affects it.

Bengals1181
02-13-2013, 10:42 AM
Does anyone have a clue what the compensatory pick formula is? I know it's somehow related to the contracts your FAs sign, but I don't know what the cutoffs are or how resigning guys affects it.

I don't think anyone outside of the league knows the exact formula. There's one guy, who's name escapes me, who's pretty accurate at predicting it.

The main factor is losing more free agents than you sign. If that isn't true, the rest of it doesn't matter. Free Agents who were cut from their previous team don't count, nor do free agents you cut, or free agents that have 10 or more years of experience (Faneca and Houshmanzadeh are examples from previous years).

Size of contract and playing time also play roles.

packa7x
02-13-2013, 12:03 PM
I don't think anyone outside of the league knows the exact formula. There's one guy, who's name escapes me, who's pretty accurate at predicting it.

The main factor is losing more free agents than you sign. If that isn't true, the rest of it doesn't matter. Free Agents who were cut from their previous team don't count, nor do free agents you cut, or free agents that have 10 or more years of experience (Faneca and Houshmanzadeh are examples from previous years).

Size of contract and playing time also play roles.

I recall also coming across a guy who nailed it consistently. IIRC, he hypothesized that there were tiers...if the player was signed for...the vet minimum to let's say $1.2 million, that's a 7th rd pick, $1.2-4 million is a 6th rd pick, etc. I believe GB got a 4th round pick for Aaron Kampman...his $6 million/year salary average was on the cusp of being a 3rd or 4th rounder. It's interesting to learn this stuff.

tubbs1518
02-13-2013, 06:50 PM
I've got my new mock up on stripe hype Bengals. You want the link, or you just want me to copy and paste it here? It's pretty long and will take up more room than a Mike rant lol.

packa7x
02-13-2013, 09:00 PM
I've got my new mock up on stripe hype Bengals. You want the link, or you just want me to copy and paste it here? It's pretty long and will take up more room than a Mike rant lol.

Send the link so we can get you page views, but also copy and paste it. Stripe Hype doesn't work very well on my iPad.

tubbs1518
02-13-2013, 09:07 PM
http://stripehype.com/2013/02/11/nfl-mock-draft-2013-full-7-round-cincinnati-bengals-draft/

With the NFL season now over, teams and fans alike are looking ahead to the off season. The most exciting part of the off season for most people is the NFL draft. Now it is very hard to mock an accurate draft before the combine, but we will do one now and then do another one post combine and see how similar they look. I will be doing a full 6round mock, since the Bengals traded their 7th rounder for Taylor Mays.

”"21. Cincinnati Bengals – Alec Ogletree LB Georgia

The Bengals linebacker play, outside of Vontaze Burfict last year was really bad. Manny Lawson, Rey Maualuga and Thomas Howard are all free agents and Howard is coming back from a serious injury. Even if Howard is brought back, there’s no guarantee that he would be as good as he was pre-injury. Ogletree was outstanding for the Dawgs last year. He brings speed, athleticism and coverage ability to the Bengals linebacker core. He was a safety before becoming a linebacker. He would add a whole new dimension to the Bengals defense.

37. Cincinnati Bengals – Jordan Poyer CB Oregon State

The Bengals had a lot of 1st round picks playing at CB last season. However Terence Newman, Pacman Jones and Nate Clements are all free agents. Newman and Clements are also getting up there in age. At the very least one of these guys will not be back. We also don’t know what we have in Dre Kirkpatrick since he missed basically the whole year with injuries. Poyer was fantastic for the Beavers last year. Poyer was on an island a lot in OSU’s blitz heavy scheme. He also possesses really good ball skills. In his final two seasons at Oregon State, he racked up 11 INT’s, 19 passes defensed as well as 108 tackles.

”"53. Cincinnati Bengals – Phillip Thomas FS Fresno State

Reggie Nelson is a good safety, however the other safety spot was occupied by Taylor Mays, Jeromy Miles and they were back enough that the Bengals had to bring in Chris Crocker from his couch. They have drafted safety the past 2 drafts, but both in the 5th round. Nelson is better in the box and when he can blitz. However Thomas is really a ball hawking safety. He is a good athlete with speed and agility to play well in coverage. He has really good ball skills and really good hands. He is an above average tackler and wraps up well.

”"84. Cincinnati Bengals – Jonathan Franklin RB UCLA

While not an elite RB, BenJarvus Green-Ellis played well enough last year to earn himself another year as the running back. However what the Bengals really lacked last year was a change of pace back that was a home run threat. Bernard Scott didn’t play at all last year due to injuries, and while being good on special teams, Cedric Peerman and Dan Herron are not viable #2 running backs. Jonathan Franklin brings elite speed, elusiveness and good hands out of the backfield. He isn’t great in blitz pickup, but brings the ability to take it to the house any time he touches the ball.

115. Cincinnati Bengals – Devin Taylor DE South Carolina

The Bengals pass rush was their biggest strength this year. Michael Johnson and Carlos Dunlap are terrors off the edge, while Wallace Gilberry added in 6.5 sacks and was a really good 3rd pass rusher. However, Johnson, Gilberry and Robert Geathers are all free agents this off season, while Dunlap will be after next season. One would think that the Bengals would like to keep their line together, but with Geno Atkins and Pat Sims also looking at free agency soon, that will be a ton of money to spend. Taylor brings a great combination of size and speed. He doesn’t have outstanding numbers that you would expect from an athlete like him, but he does have a ton of potential. Who better for a player like this to learn from than Michael Johnson?

”"149. Cincinnati Bengals – Aaron Mellette WR Elon

The Bengals didn’t have much in the way of a #2 WR last year outside of the 4 game stretch Mohamed Sanu had. While Marvin Jones and Sanu look to be the leaders to handle that spot, the Bengals to could take a WR later in the draft and hope they hit it big. With Brandon Tate being a free agent this off season, there is a wide receiver spot opening on this team. Mellette certainly looks the part, standing at 6’4 and weighing in at 212 pounds. As a junior he led all wide receivers in the nation in catches per game and yards per game. Mellette was a basketball player growing up and didn’t start playing football until his Sophomore year of high school. That should give him good body control and the ability to use his body against the defender.

”"180. Cincinnati Bengals – Omoregie Uzzi OG Georgia Tech

The Bengals guards played well in 2012, but there was still much to be desired. Kevin Zeitler will be a starter in a Bengals uniform for a long time, but whether or not Clint Boling is being viewed as a long term starter is still in the air. Uzzi helped the Yellow Jackets rush for 312.5 yards per game last year. He is a very athletic OG, who gets to the 2nd level quickly. He has a strong initial hit on defenders and has the ability to engage and disengage defenders without losing momentum. However he is only of average size for an OG and isn’t overly powerful. If nothing else could provide very good depth on the line.

”"187. Cincinnati Bengals – Jordan Rodgers QB Vanderbilt

Bruce Gradkowski is a FA this off season, and isn’t a great backup QB anyways. If something happened to Dalton, I wouldn’t be comfortable having Gradkowski come in and expect him to be able to lead the Bengals to a victory. While not the prospect his brother is, Rodgers has shown some nice talent of his own. Like his brother he has the ability to scramble and pick up yards, showing some nice athleticism. He doesn’t have the arm his brother does, but he does show a nice touch on short and intermediate routes. Like Dalton, his deep ball isn’t very good. He improved his accuracy from 50% as a Junior to 60% as a senior. He threw for 15 touchdowns and 5 interceptions as a senior for the Commodors.

packa7x
02-14-2013, 09:29 PM
I like Ogletree going here. I saw a lot of mocks where you guys take Te'o, but I prefer Ogletree. I think you guys keep Gradkowski or go with a vet FA like a Drew Stanton. If you guys draft a QB, I think it'll be a true developmental guy.

Bengals1181
02-14-2013, 10:31 PM
I like Ogletree going here. I saw a lot of mocks where you guys take Te'o, but I prefer Ogletree. I think you guys keep Gradkowski or go with a vet FA like a Drew Stanton. If you guys draft a QB, I think it'll be a true developmental guy.

I think they'll go after a Matt Moore or Seneca wallace.


I just dont like the way Ogletree plays. He's soft in the run game and I haven't seen proof he can play man coverage. Good in zone though. He makes a lot of tackles, but 4-5 yards down the field. Elite athlete, but he doesn't play like one.

tubbs1518
02-14-2013, 11:16 PM
I think me and you have been watching different tape Bengals. I haven't seen what you are describing at all.

Bengals1181
02-14-2013, 11:28 PM
At one point in the season one of his own coaches called him soft. He rarely ever attacks the LOS.

edave
02-14-2013, 11:54 PM
187. Cincinnati Bengals – Jordan Rodgers QB Vanderbilt

First time I've noticed him getting drafted, most of the stories I've read seem to imply he's more likely to wind up as an UDFA.

mikesteelnation1
02-15-2013, 01:16 AM
At one point in the season one of his own coaches called him soft. He rarely ever attacks the LOS.

I agree 100%. He doesn't defeat blocks very well, and routinely gets caught up in the wash. He needs to learn to use his hands better, and take better angles when playing the run. He, as you said, is good in zone coverage. He's good at recognition, and keying on the qb. Likewise, he's not good at man coverage. He plays the ball, not the man and that is his issue when playing man up.

He is a superior athlete, and has a high ceiling, which is why he's likely to be a 1st rounder. His technical flaws can be fixed. Remember he's only played lb for a few years. It's why he utilizes poor technique when going north-south to the los, and in man coverage. 10 lbs of mass, and some time with a professional lb coach, and he will be fine.

I just don't want Pittsburgh taking him... If were going to take on a project at lb, it needs to be an outside one. At least that way his athleticism can be used a bit early on during situational pass rushes. He wouldn't see the field for a minimum of a year in Pittsburgh, and we need a guy who makes an impact from day 1 in the first round this year.

Bengals1181
02-15-2013, 09:14 AM
First time I've noticed him getting drafted, most of the stories I've read seem to imply he's more likely to wind up as an UDFA.

I could see him going 5th or later. I like him and wouldn't mind if the bengals took him, but I think they are going to go the vet route.

packa7x
02-15-2013, 06:39 PM
I'm still in predraft mode so I'm not current on most players. Could be spot on about Ogletree.

Bengals1181
02-17-2013, 09:16 AM
Ogletree got a DUI last night, 4 days before the combine. What an idiot.


That pretty much takes him out of the mix for the Bengals at 21, which is good. They'll take chances on guys in later rounds, but they don't take character risks in the first round.

packa7x
02-17-2013, 12:26 PM
Ogletree got a DUI last night, 4 days before the combine. What an idiot.


That pretty much takes him out of the mix for the Bengals at 21, which is good. They'll take chances on guys in later rounds, but they don't take character risks in the first round.

Wow what a dolt...

mikesteelnation1
02-17-2013, 01:43 PM
Wow what a dolt...

+1

He just cost himself quite a bit of money. He's been suspended for a failed drug test prior, now this. With the increased emphasis on the personal conduct policy someone who has shown a trend of lacking self control will make teams reticent to use high round picks on said player...

packa7x
02-17-2013, 09:59 PM
Does he fall or is he still a 1st round talent?

tubbs1518
02-17-2013, 11:57 PM
Does he fall or is he still a 1st round talent?

1st round talent still, but he will fall to the 2nd IMO. I doubt he drops any farther than that.

mikesteelnation1
02-18-2013, 02:41 AM
1st round talent still, but he will fall to the 2nd IMO. I doubt he drops any farther than that.

Agreed he's got first round talent, but he's got never drafted ever brains and morals. The kid has been arrested for theft, suspended for drug use, and now pegged with a DUI. The kids a dumbass with more red flags than an Andy Reid "stupid call challenge" highlight film. :)

IMO he's now going to be picked no earlier than the 3rd. Having said that, I'm probably wrong simply bc so many teams have holes at mlb. The question now is, what gm is willing to gamble a pick before the 3rd on a very, very high character concern guy?

packa7x
02-18-2013, 06:35 AM
No way he's still there in the 3rd. 1st round talents don't last even with baggage.

tubbs1518
02-18-2013, 10:55 AM
I'm also very doubtful he ever sees a down at MLB in the NFL. He is built to be a WLB. I honestly see the Bengals taking him in the 2nd. They love their Georgia players. Odel Thurman v2.0 anyone?

packa7x
02-18-2013, 11:19 AM
I'm also very doubtful he ever sees a down at MLB in the NFL. He is built to be a WLB. I honestly see the Bengals taking him in the 2nd. They love their Georgia players. Odel Thurman v2.0 anyone?

I think he'll see time at MLB. He's a versatile player. I think if he's there at GB's pick, we take him. We can rotate him around...maybe take Perry off the field on passing downs. He was AWFUL in coverage last year.

KabaModernFan
02-20-2013, 10:41 PM
Been watching some more tape of runningbacks lately, came away very impressed with Joseph Randle and Andre Ellington. I particularly liked how good Ellington looked in pass protection, which is not something I was expecting to see him excel in.

One late round prospect who caught my eye was Kerwynn Williams out of Utah State. Did not get a heavy workload until this season due to the presence of Robert Turbin, but I really liked his ability to get into the open field and make things happen. Adds value as a kick/punt returner too. If he runs well at the Combine I can see his stock getting a big boost, as the main concern about Williams would probably be his long speed.

Bengals1181
02-20-2013, 10:42 PM
I'm a big fan of both Randle and Ellington. IMO Randle still may be the second best back behind Lacy. Ellington, IMO, may be the closest thing to Ray Rice in the draft.

KabaModernFan
02-20-2013, 11:49 PM
I'm a big fan of both Randle and Ellington. IMO Randle still may be the second best back behind Lacy. Ellington, IMO, may be the closest thing to Ray Rice in the draft.

I am inclined to agree with you there. Randle is really pushing Bernard for me right now in terms of who my #2 rated RB is. Think that both of them are very solid early/mid second-round selections. Ellington is just a little bit below them as my #4 RB right now. Rice is an interesting comp for him. It's not the first name that came into my head, but I can definitely see it.

vancemeek
02-21-2013, 01:22 AM
Been watching some more tape of runningbacks lately, came away very impressed with Joseph Randle and Andre Ellington. I particularly liked how good Ellington looked in pass protection, which is not something I was expecting to see him excel in.

One late round prospect who caught my eye was Kerwynn Williams out of Utah State. Did not get a heavy workload until this season due to the presence of Robert Turbin, but I really liked his ability to get into the open field and make things happen. Adds value as a kick/punt returner too. If he runs well at the Combine I can see his stock getting a big boost, as the main concern about Williams would probably be his long speed.

You're speaking language now. I love Randle. Had him as my 3rd fave back.

packa7x
02-26-2013, 05:39 PM
Interesting notes listening to First Draft today...

Both McShay and Kiper LOVE Ogletree.

Both guys defended Te'o saying that his average combine times will likely improve at his Pro Day.

McShay has a 2nd round grade on Geno Smith, both have him as the top QB. Kiper sees him going in the mid to late first round, McShay has him going in the mid first.

Kiper thinks only 2 first round QBs will be taken, McShay thinks 3.

Bengals1181
02-26-2013, 05:44 PM
I think 3 with an outside shot at 4. Smith, Glennon, Barkley and maybe Manuel if a team trades up.

tubbs1518
02-26-2013, 05:51 PM
I think 3 with an outside shot at 4. Smith, Glennon, Barkley and maybe Manuel if a team trades up.

I tend to agree, though if I'm a team I'm taking Bray over Barkley. That is just me though.

As far as the RB's I have Randle as my #3 behind Gio and Franklin.

packa7x
02-26-2013, 06:05 PM
Do we see Buffalo trade back into the first for Nassib?

KabaModernFan
02-26-2013, 06:39 PM
Do we see Buffalo trade back into the first for Nassib?

Doubtful. I think if Buffalo wants Nassib then they can get him by staying where they are in the second round. There's no real talk of him potentially going in the first round anywhere that I've seen.

packa7x
02-26-2013, 06:56 PM
Doubtful. I think if Buffalo wants Nassib then they can get him by staying where they are in the second round. There's no real talk of him potentially going in the first round anywhere that I've seen.

Everything I've heard has been completely unsubstantiated rumors as well. McShay/Kiper briefly entertained it and left it at "people overpay for QBs all the time"...I won't be shocked if we see it.

KabaModernFan
02-26-2013, 07:20 PM
What I don't think will happen though is Buffalo making a move to take Geno Smith in the first round. This of course is based off of nothing more than the fact that Geno Smith typically struggled whenever he played against Marrone's Syracuse teams.

packa7x
02-26-2013, 07:41 PM
What I don't think will happen though is Buffalo making a move to take Geno Smith in the first round. This of course is based off of nothing more than the fact that Geno Smith typically struggled whenever he played against Marrone's Syracuse teams.

Its possible. This draft is murky with the QB position.

Bengals1181
02-27-2013, 12:00 PM
I haven't watched Milliner yet, but Jamar Taylor is the best corner I've watched in this draft.

Bengals1181
02-27-2013, 06:57 PM
1. LB Arthur Brown - Brown at WLB along with Burfict at MLB is going to be fun to watch. Both are tackling machines.

2a. CB Jamar Taylor - convential wisdom says get a safety first, but there are going to be some excellent corners in the early 2nd, and I'd rather have a glut at corner than safety. This guy is going to be a starter in the league. I'm not convinced he'll end up being here by the time the draft rolls around. If you have to move newman or kirkpatrick to safety to make room for a great corner, well that's a good problem to have.

2b. RB Johnathan Franklin - They aren't looking for "the guy" for 2013, but I do think they are looking for someone who can be the main guy in 2014 and beyond. Franklin's got some LeSean McCoy in him.

3. WR Cobi Hamilton - The kind of guy Gruden seems to want. Can play every WR position (which Gruden is big on), has good speed and a large frame.

4. S Shawn Williams - They don't get one of the top 5 or 6 safeties, but due to the deep class they still get a highly productive college safety with NFL caliber skills. Besides, getting a top corner earlier allows them to potentially move a guy to safety if they feel the need.

5. OL David Quessenberry - a younger, more athletic Dennis Roland.

6. RB Chris Thompson - wasn't at the combine, but if he was, he likely would have ran a sub 4.4. A tiny guy, but could be used as a return specialist.

6. LB Michael Mauti - if he weren't recovering from his 3rd knee injury of his career he'd be a top 100 pick IMO. A tremendous leader who was incredibly thought of at Penn State.

tubbs1518
02-27-2013, 07:19 PM
1. LB Arthur Brown - Brown at WLB along with Burfict at MLB is going to be fun to watch. Both are tackling machines.

2a. CB Jamar Taylor - convential wisdom says get a safety first, but there are going to be some excellent corners in the early 2nd, and I'd rather have a glut at corner than safety. This guy is going to be a starter in the league. I'm not convinced he'll end up being here by the time the draft rolls around. If you have to move newman or kirkpatrick to safety to make room for a great corner, well that's a good problem to have.

2b. RB Johnathan Franklin - They aren't looking for "the guy" for 2013, but I do think they are looking for someone who can be the main guy in 2014 and beyond. Franklin's got some LeSean McCoy in him.

3. WR Cobi Hamilton - The kind of guy Gruden seems to want. Can play every WR position (which Gruden is big on), has good speed and a large frame.

4. S Shawn Williams - They don't get one of the top 5 or 6 safeties, but due to the deep class they still get a highly productive college safety with NFL caliber skills. Besides, getting a top corner earlier allows them to potentially move a guy to safety if they feel the need.

5. OL David Quessenberry - a younger, more athletic Dennis Roland.

6. RB Chris Thompson - wasn't at the combine, but if he was, he likely would have ran a sub 4.4. A tiny guy, but could be used as a return specialist.

6. LB Michael Mauti - if he weren't recovering from his 3rd knee injury of his career he'd be a top 100 pick IMO. A tremendous leader who was incredibly thought of at Penn State.

I'd be pretty ecstatic with this draft. I'd rather go S in the 3rd than WR. I don't see it as that big of a need. Love the first 3 picks.

tubbs1518
02-27-2013, 10:39 PM
@AdamSchefter

And @mortreport is reporting the Raiders have interest in drafting WVU QB Geno Smith, a player some see as a top 10 pick.
1:46 AM - 28 Feb 13

Bengals1181
02-28-2013, 02:24 PM
a little different feel at the top after thinking some things over:


1. LB Arthur Brown

2a. WR Robert Woods

2b. S Jonathan Cyprien

3. RB Joseph Randle





the writing seems to be on the wall that Maualuga will be the SLB, which makes WLB and depth the focus in the draft. The more I think about things they've said and watch old games, I think longterm they see Sanu as the guy they want in the slot, and Hawkins being a core special teamer and having less of a role on offense to keep him fresh. We saw this by midseason when they took him out of the pittsburgh gameplan to rest an aching back. He only really played special teams. I think you'll see him split time with Pacman at punt returner. All of that means they will put a high priority on finding a guy opposite of Green with Sanu in the slot. Woods would be a great complement to AJ and a guy who could be a fringe #1 when needed. Most importantly, he's one of the most pro ready WR's in the draft.

Randle is a guy that does the things they like. He can catch, and he can block. Doesn't have great speed, but has enough to be a feature back.

Cyprien fills the safety need. He's growing on me, but I still don't think he's a top 50 pick or in the top 3 at safety.

tubbs1518
02-28-2013, 02:54 PM
a little different feel at the top after thinking some things over:


1. LB Arthur Brown

2a. WR Robert Woods

2b. S Jonathan Cyprien

3. RB Joseph Randle





the writing seems to be on the wall that Maualuga will be the SLB, which makes WLB and depth the focus in the draft. The more I think about things they've said and watch old games, I think longterm they see Sanu as the guy they want in the slot, and Hawkins being a core special teamer and having less of a role on offense to keep him fresh. We saw this by midseason when they took him out of the pittsburgh gameplan to rest an aching back. He only really played special teams. I think you'll see him split time with Pacman at punt returner. All of that means they will put a high priority on finding a guy opposite of Green with Sanu in the slot. Woods would be a great complement to AJ and a guy who could be a fringe #1 when needed. Most importantly, he's one of the most pro ready WR's in the draft.

Randle is a guy that does the things they like. He can catch, and he can block. Doesn't have great speed, but has enough to be a feature back.

Cyprien fills the safety need. He's growing on me, but I still don't think he's a top 50 pick or in the top 3 at safety.

I'd say there is less that a 10% chance that Cyprien is there at our 1st pick in the 2nd round, much less our second pick .

Bengals1181
02-28-2013, 02:55 PM
he has been wildly overrated.

tubbs1518
02-28-2013, 03:04 PM
he has been wildly overrated.

I completely disagree. He does everything well. Great range, hard hitter, plays the ball well, fast reaction, good in coverage. I am about a hair away from rating him higher than Vaccaro.

Bengals1181
02-28-2013, 03:11 PM
you're right. He does everything well.


Nothing great.

tubbs1518
02-28-2013, 03:13 PM
you're right. He does everything well.


Nothing great.

And what is wrong with that? He plays the pass very well and is also good against the run. I'd rather have someone strong in all facets of the game rather than a guy who is great at one thing but a huge liability in another. Cyprien is better in man to man coverage than Rambo, but plays the run 100 times better.

Bengals1181
02-28-2013, 03:14 PM
there's nothing wrong with it. It just doesn't make you a first round pick IMO.

tubbs1518
02-28-2013, 03:18 PM
Josh Norris of NFL.com has Cyprien going #14 overall and 7 spots ahead of Vaccaro.

Bengals1181
02-28-2013, 03:19 PM
I know he does. Josh and I disagree on a lot.

tubbs1518
02-28-2013, 03:21 PM
I know he does. Josh and I disagree on a lot.

I'm just saying, there is pretty much 0 chance he falls into the 2nd round, much less our 2nd, 2nd rounder. I'd be ecstatic if we took him at 21.

KabaModernFan
02-28-2013, 05:05 PM
I currently have Cyprien going at #41. He can't play as a single-high safety and I have concerns about his angles/technique in run defense. I like his physicality and ball skills, but he's just my #4 safety overall.

Bengals1181
02-28-2013, 05:07 PM
I currently have Cyprien going at #41. He can't play as a single-high safety and I have concerns about his angles/technique in run defense. I like his physicality and ball skills, but he's just my #4 safety overall.

same here, behind vacarro, elam and reid. Does everything well but nothing great, and was doing it against low-level talent. Should have stood out more against FBS teams.

tubbs1518
02-28-2013, 05:15 PM
same here, behind vacarro, elam and reid. Does everything well but nothing great, and was doing it against low-level talent. Should have stood out more against FBS teams.

I have him easily ahead of Elam and Reid. But to each their own. I'd wager it's almost an 80% certainty he goes over both of them. I loved Reid last year, but this year proved to me that he isn't as good as I thought. He needs a lot of talent around him to be a great S. Elam I just don't like. I've never been a fan. Probably my #5 or so S.

edave
02-28-2013, 09:05 PM
I came across these on another forum and while they don't hold a lot of interest for me, some of you will likely enjoy them:

A rather interesting draft spreadsheet... 2013 NFL Draft Bible v2.xlsx (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7jpddwjvv00txhs)

Also this

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AotIVo4gpWF8dEtPV0x3UHNnM2hlRUxYbTBoekJ2Y UE&gid=2

Docta
03-01-2013, 06:35 PM
http://i.imgur.com/ssg65iV.png

packa7x
03-02-2013, 01:07 PM
Hahahahaha!! Love it Docta.

Bengals1181
03-03-2013, 11:46 AM
Curious on people's thoughts on DJ Fluker. I watched 3 of his games yesterday and I'm not convinced he's a top 40 pick, but everywhere you read he's considered a top 20 pick.


The 16lbs he lost leading up to the combine should help, but he just seems more big than athletic to me. He's not overly hard to get around, and its not like I was watching bonafide pass rushers from Michigan, Mississippi State and Notre Dame get around him.

I honestly don't think he'd be a top 40 pick if he wasn't an Alabama Olineman. Kind of reminds me of Philip Loadholdt who went 54th in his draft.

KabaModernFan
03-03-2013, 12:53 PM
I would be satisfied getting a slightly better version of Phil Loadholt with a pick in the twenties. You could do a lot worse than a very proficient run-blocking right tackle there. Plenty of teams with a need at RT in the twenties too. That shouldn't be discounted.

Bengals1181
03-03-2013, 01:01 PM
I suppose I shall go watch more of him.

Bengals1181
03-04-2013, 10:24 AM
I came across these on another forum and while they don't hold a lot of interest for me, some of you will likely enjoy them:

A rather interesting draft spreadsheet... 2013 NFL Draft Bible v2.xlsx (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7jpddwjvv00txhs)

Also this

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AotIVo4gpWF8dEtPV0x3UHNnM2hlRUxYbTBoekJ2Y UE&gid=2

great links dave.

tubbs1518
03-05-2013, 03:35 PM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2013/03/05/report-northern-iowa-wr-posts-4-19-40-time/

Rich Gapinski
03-05-2013, 03:38 PM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2013/03/05/report-northern-iowa-wr-posts-4-19-40-time/

Was it run on Florida's famous track where everyone gets a 4.4 or better? Not buying that one.

tubbs1518
03-05-2013, 03:47 PM
Ran at Minnesota apparently.

Bengals1181
03-08-2013, 09:42 AM
anyone find any game tape of Ty Powell? The Bengals were one of 8 teams at his pro day, and the Bengals don't send a scout to watch just one guy unless they're pretty interested. Looks great in drills.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzKXntDOd4

packa7x
03-08-2013, 04:52 PM
I was thinking about the Alex Smith deal. If it goes through, that means that KC feels that Alex Smith is better than all the QBs in this draft. Very telling.

Trumpetbdw
03-08-2013, 05:06 PM
I was thinking about the Alex Smith deal. If it goes through, that means that KC feels that Alex Smith is better than all the QBs in this draft. Very telling.

Or it means they feel there's a sure-fire superstar in this draft at a position other than QB, and taking Smith + Superstar is better for their team than QB + 2nd round pick.

Keep in mind with Andy Reid at the helm, and a playoff berth just 2 seasons ago with much of the core of that roster still in tact, I doubt that KC is looking to 3 or 4 years down the road.

Perhaps they should be thinking that way, but with Charles, Bowe, Albert, Hali, Johnson, Flowers, and Berry, that's about as good a nucleus for a team with the top pick as you're ever going to see.

Also, I've not jumped in much on the Alex Smith discussion, but count me among the people who think he's a huge upgrade over Matt Cassel. Smith is certainly not great, but he has the chance to give KC a more athletic and durable version of Chad Pennington. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

packa7x
03-09-2013, 09:02 AM
I see what you're saying, but I really don't think it's the case. You don't pass up the potential future of your franchise for a guy who has been inconsistent and is an 8 year vet. You get him because he's the best option. I just don't see a guy at No.1 who is cant miss.

Bengals1181
03-12-2013, 12:15 AM
Penn State fans in the house, tell us about Stephon Morris.

Trumpetbdw
03-12-2013, 12:49 AM
Penn State fans in the house, tell us about Stephon Morris.

Well, he's small and fast. That pretty much bore itself out at PSU as well. He was a good college player, not great. I'd guess his upside is that he could turn himself into a decent nickel CB, but I'd be surprised if he's anything more than that.

The sleeper PSU player in this draft is LB Gerald Hodges. He reminds me a lot of Navorro Bowman. Similar size, great in coverage, solid tackler with a punch. He's likely to go in round 3, and could be a great find for a team.

Bengals1181
03-12-2013, 08:24 AM
Well, he's small and fast. That pretty much bore itself out at PSU as well. He was a good college player, not great. I'd guess his upside is that he could turn himself into a decent nickel CB, but I'd be surprised if he's anything more than that.

The sleeper PSU player in this draft is LB Gerald Hodges. He reminds me a lot of Navorro Bowman. Similar size, great in coverage, solid tackler with a punch. He's likely to go in round 3, and could be a great find for a team.


Morris looks like a great tackler, but I was only looking at a highlight reel.

Trumpetbdw
03-12-2013, 09:44 AM
Morris looks like a great tackler, but I was only looking at a highlight reel.

Yeah, he's fine, like I said. Was honorable mention all Big Ten. But he wasn't invited to the combine for a reason. Doesn't mean he can't be good, but he hasn't been considered an elite prospect.

I'm just not sure how his game will translate to the pros. The lack of size is a big concern. But the upside of a pretty good nickel on a team isn't a bad find after the first few rounds.

Bengals1181
03-14-2013, 08:48 AM
Yeah, he's fine, like I said. Was honorable mention all Big Ten. But he wasn't invited to the combine for a reason. Doesn't mean he can't be good, but he hasn't been considered an elite prospect.

I'm just not sure how his game will translate to the pros. The lack of size is a big concern. But the upside of a pretty good nickel on a team isn't a bad find after the first few rounds.


oh I'm not thinking elite prospect, I'm thinking round 4-7 guy.


Another under the radar DB I was impressed with on tape while watching other people was CB Dustin Harris of Texas A&M. Really like the way he plays the game.

Bengals1181
03-27-2013, 03:58 PM
starting to get into more what I think the Bengals will do rather than what I'd do:



21. SS Matt Elam

37. RB Jonathan Franklin

53. DE Alex Okafor

84. LB Devonte Holloman

118. WR Cobi Hamilton

156. DB Tyrann Mathieu

190. QB Zac Dysert

197. OT Manase Foketi

240. RB Zac Stacy

251. LB/DE Walter Stewart

tubbs1518
03-27-2013, 04:15 PM
starting to get into more what I think the Bengals will do rather than what I'd do:



21. SS Matt Elam

37. RB Jonathan Franklin

53. DE Alex Okafor

84. LB Devonte Holloman

118. WR Cobi Hamilton

156. DB Tyrann Mathieu

190. QB Zac Dysert

197. OT Manase Foketi

240. RB Zac Stacy

251. LB/DE Walter Stewart

That draft would only get about a C+ from me. However with a couple of tweaks it could turn into an A. I don't like Elam, he is about my 5-8th rated safety. Not a fan, not a fan of Okafor either. Trade those 2 out for other people at their position and this draft jumps a huge amount.

packa7x
03-29-2013, 09:57 AM
In order to let Jermichael Finley walk next year and not overpay him, Ted Thompson would have to draft a TE because the currents ones aren't great behind Finley. I don't think Thompson wants to draft one early, either. I think my favorite developmental pick would be Travis Kelce, I think he really has a chance to blossom into a quality player provided he can stay out of trouble.

What say you draft nicks?

KabaModernFan
03-29-2013, 01:36 PM
In order to let Jermichael Finley walk next year and not overpay him, Ted Thompson would have to draft a TE because the currents ones aren't great behind Finley. I don't think Thompson wants to draft one early, either. I think my favorite developmental pick would be Travis Kelce, I think he really has a chance to blossom into a quality player provided he can stay out of trouble.

What say you draft nicks?

Kelce is my #5 TE behind Eifert, Ertz, McDonald, and Escobar. I have questions about Kelce's ability as a legitimate receiver.

packa7x
03-29-2013, 05:39 PM
Kelce is my #5 TE behind Eifert, Ertz, McDonald, and Escobar. I have questions about Kelce's ability as a legitimate receiver.

Yeah, he's definitely not an elite talent, but he's also not devoid of talent. I think a couple years in a reserve role could turn him into a cheap Starter.

packa7x
03-30-2013, 11:16 PM
Kevin Kolb signs with Buffalo. Is this a sign that Geno Smith doesn't go to to Buffalo?

edave
04-20-2013, 02:31 AM
Should we use this thread for the next 10 days of general discussions or create a new one? I'm chucking things here for now.

I gathered this data about the Thompson Packer drafts a couple months ago and meant to share it then, but forgot.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtolWqsIlyxUdEl2ZW5QNlE1MVA4UlJuV1J5YUFZU 2c&usp=sharing

Rich, it might be useful for your draft studies, or not.

Docta
04-20-2013, 06:27 AM
Should we use this thread for the next 10 days of general discussions or create a new one? I'm chucking things here for now.

I gathered this data about the Thompson Packer drafts a couple months ago and meant to share it then, but forgot.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtolWqsIlyxUdEl2ZW5QNlE1MVA4UlJuV1J5YUFZU 2c&usp=sharing

Rich, it might be useful for your draft studies, or not.
7 or more picks in each draft. The Bears haven't had 7 in the last 3 years. :confused:

Someone else did something similar with Emery's draft history (http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/02/27/durkin-inside-emerys-draft-history/). Out of his 59 selections, 22 are starters, 22 are out of the league, and Roddy White is the lone All-Pro. Don't think he included UDFAs though.

Rich Gapinski
04-20-2013, 07:12 AM
Should we use this thread for the next 10 days of general discussions or create a new one? I'm chucking things here for now.

I gathered this data about the Thompson Packer drafts a couple months ago and meant to share it then, but forgot.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtolWqsIlyxUdEl2ZW5QNlE1MVA4UlJuV1J5YUFZU 2c&usp=sharing

Rich, it might be useful for your draft studies, or not.

Essentially, that's what the data is.

Trumpetbdw
04-22-2013, 10:37 AM
The top of the draft is littered with top guys at premium positions. But my question is this...

Who are the 5 best football players in this draft, regardless of position? In my opinion, here's the list...

1. Chance Warmick
2. Tyler Eifert
3. Star Lotulelei
4. Dion Jordan
5. Eric Fisher

I'm not saying that a team should pass on either Fisher or Joeckel to take Warmick. Clearly LT is a much more important position than a position on the inside of the line. I'm also not saying that Eifert should go in the top 10, since TE is not a position that traditionally goes that high. But I am predicting that when we're looking back on this draft in 5-10 years, those guys are the 2 that stand out above the rest.

I also think Manti Te'o is very close to making this list.

packa7x
04-22-2013, 11:22 AM
The top of the draft is littered with top guys at premium positions. But my question is this...

Who are the 5 best football players in this draft, regardless of position? In my opinion, here's the list...

1. Chance Warmick
2. Tyler Eifert
3. Star Lotulelei
4. Dion Jordan
5. Eric Fisher

I'm not saying that a team should pass on either Fisher or Joeckel to take Warmick. Clearly LT is a much more important position than a position on the inside of the line. I'm also not saying that Eifert should go in the top 10, since TE is not a position that traditionally goes that high. But I am predicting that when we're looking back on this draft in 5-10 years, those guys are the 2 that stand out above the rest.

I also think Manti Te'o is very close to making this list.


I disagree with everything except Te'o being close. The guy was pretty average before the incident. I think Chance is definitely a top guy, but you just can't pick a guard that early haha

Trumpetbdw
04-22-2013, 12:09 PM
I disagree with everything except Te'o being close. The guy was pretty average before the incident. I think Chance is definitely a top guy, but you just can't pick a guard that early haha

Not saying these should be the top 5 picks. This shows no regard for need or "importance" of position. But as for the best overall players, this is my gut.

Nearly put Cooper over Fisher. I think the LTs are both top 10 guys, making them legit for the top of the draft, but I think when it's all said and done, Warmick has a better chance to be a multi-time all pro than anyone else in this draft.

Andy Freeland
04-22-2013, 01:34 PM
I don't really see Warmack being the best player. He's a very good player but just doesn't move in space particularly well. Once he gets his hands on someone it's over, but he's not great at pulling or getting to the 2nd level to take out the backside LB. Not that I'm trashing him, I think he's a top 20 pick, but not best overall.

I'm not sure this draft has a best overall player, or even a top 5. The top 10-15 players all seem pretty comparable, depending on scheme and need.

ScottDCP
04-22-2013, 01:51 PM
Kevin Kolb signs with Buffalo. Is this a sign that Geno Smith doesn't go to to Buffalo?

Hope so. He can't handle winter.

Trumpetbdw
04-22-2013, 02:08 PM
I don't really see Warmack being the best player. He's a very good player but just doesn't move in space particularly well. Once he gets his hands on someone it's over, but he's not great at pulling or getting to the 2nd level to take out the backside LB. Not that I'm trashing him, I think he's a top 20 pick, but not best overall.

I'm not sure this draft has a best overall player, or even a top 5. The top 10-15 players all seem pretty comparable, depending on scheme and need.

Fair point, and I think the final point is fairest of them all. I agree there's not much separating any of the 10-12 best players, other than positional value.

I'm going to try to avoid sounding like a draft guy here, because I'm decidedly not, but that's going to be impossible. On Warmick, I agree that he doesn't have elite feet. That said, I think he's athletic enough to do what's required of him, if he's asked to pull, which he rarely or never was asked to do at Alabama. Just because he didn't doesn't mean he can't. Their scheme didn't require it.

We know that Warmick has dominant potential, but even showing just average footwork would project him as becoming one of the 2 or 3 best Gs in the game.

If there's a dominant player in this draft, at any position, I think it's him. In my opinion, Eifert is the next best bet. On defense, that player is Lotulelei. That's why I think they're the 3 best players in the draft, even though at least two of them very well may not be selected within the top 10.

Ragar
04-22-2013, 03:25 PM
2013 draft, drinking games, people falling off stools, and lots of "huh?" moments. Im so excited

Bengals1181
04-22-2013, 03:32 PM
So Bengals DC Mike Zimmer has personally worked out Cyprien, Vaccaro, Reid and Elam all in the last week. Their first workout with Cyprien, 3rd with Vaccaro, 3rd with Elam, and at least their 2nd with Reid.

Docta
04-23-2013, 06:07 AM
http://i.imgur.com/nwojNVV.jpg

Good ol' Jags..

wxwax
04-23-2013, 02:33 PM
Is that real or fake?

edave
04-23-2013, 08:35 PM
This came through on the AmCapNFL list today...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/jason-la-canfora/22122282/cap-space-leaves-redskins-with-little-wiggle-room-to-even-sign-draft-picks

Washington has less that $30,000 in cap space (and 72 contracts) based on the NFL Management Council calculations.

Bengals1181
04-25-2013, 03:25 PM
my final Bengals Mock:



1. S Eric Reid, LSU - instant starter at SS.
2. OL Kyle Long, Oregon - even if Smith inevitably re-signs, Long can potentailly play both tackle and guard spots. Could be Whit's longterm replacement
2. RB Johnathan Franklin, UCLA - change of pace, future starter
3. WR Da'Rick Rogers, Louisiana Tech - a steal at this point, potential #1 traits
4. LB Sean Porter, Texas A&M - quality depth at both OLB spots
5. RB Kerwynn Williams, Utah State - opening day kick returner and could split punt return duties with jones
6. DE Joe Kruger, Utah - quality depth
6. S Robert Lester, Alabama - was pretty good in 2011, not so much in 2012.
7. QB Jordan Rodgers, Vanderbilt - developmental QB
7. CB Travis Howard, Ohio State - another developmental prospect


If an Andre Smith deal happens in the next few hours (or is already done behind the scenes.



1. S Eric Reid
2. RB Eddie Lacy
2. WR Keenan Allen
3. LB Devonte Holloman
4. DE William Gholston
5. RB Kerwynn Williams
6. OT Manase Fekati
6. S Robert Lester
7. QB Jordan Rodgers
7 CB Travis Howard

vancemeek
04-25-2013, 03:31 PM
Like everything but rd 1. Would despise a 1st round pick on Reid.

Bengals1181
04-25-2013, 03:36 PM
Like everything but rd 1. Would despise a 1st round pick on Reid.

think you're gonna have a rough night then, lol.

packa7x
04-28-2013, 03:39 AM
What are the Bengals fans thoughts on your picks? My feeling is that it was solid but unspectacular. Btw I was able to meet Vinny Rey at the NFL draft and since I spend so much time on here I was able to talk Bengals with him :D

Bengals1181
04-28-2013, 10:49 AM
What are the Bengals fans thoughts on your picks? My feeling is that it was solid but unspectacular. Btw I was able to meet Vinny Rey at the NFL draft and since I spend so much time on here I was able to talk Bengals with him :D



I love our draft, though I would have liked to have gotten a better safety. The safety group still has me uneasy. No proven cover guy in the group.

Tell Vinny I think he got replaced yesterday. Or at least will once Thomas Howard is healthy and back. I don't dislike Rey, but he's a fringe roster guy.

Offense got much better this week with Eifert, Bernard and Hamilton. I also look for RB Onterio McCalebb to stick as a KR. Probably the fastest RB in the draft.

tubbs1518
04-28-2013, 11:24 AM
I loved it. One of my top 5-6 best drafts of the night. My knee jerk reaction was bad on a couple guys, but after a couple days I really like the Hunt and Williams picks. Only picks I didn't like we're the OL in the 5th and the OC in the 7th

vancemeek
04-28-2013, 12:29 PM
Solid picks. Eifert needs Gruden to be willing to open up the playbook. As a whole the offense got much faster. On defense, I'm not 100% sold on the Hunt pick, but MY GOD the dude is a monster. If he put it together at all, he's a good pick. I agree with Bengals on the S situation. I think the team thinks of Nelson as our "cover safety" and is still looking at the other spot. On the whole, I'd say a B+ to A- draft.

Bengals1181
04-28-2013, 12:41 PM
coaches say Eifert, Bernard and Hunt were all in the top 21 of the Draft Board.

Bengals1181
04-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I loved it. One of my top 5-6 best drafts of the night. My knee jerk reaction was bad on a couple guys, but after a couple days I really like the Hunt and Williams picks. Only picks I didn't like we're the OL in the 5th and the OC in the 7th

Johnson's a nice developmental guy. Very quick. Marvin said it was a heavy OL draft and they took BPA.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B22ckUxr0D8

packa7x
04-28-2013, 04:03 PM
I love our draft, though I would have liked to have gotten a better safety. The safety group still has me uneasy. No proven cover guy in the group.

Tell Vinny I think he got replaced yesterday. Or at least will once Thomas Howard is healthy and back. I don't dislike Rey, but he's a fringe roster guy.

Offense got much better this week with Eifert, Bernard and Hamilton. I also look for RB Onterio McCalebb to stick as a KR. Probably the fastest RB in the draft.

Yeah, I honestly had no idea who the hell he was before yesterday lmao...nice guy but very quiet. Got to meet Calais Campbell, Aaron Ross, and Antoine Bethea too. All great guys.

As far as your draft, it seems like you guys were going BPA which is a sign you guys think you're ready. I think the Eifert pick speaks to how much you guys really think he fits your scheme. Luxury pick for sure, but I think he'll be good very quickly.

Bengals1181
04-28-2013, 06:06 PM
Yeah, I honestly had no idea who the hell he was before yesterday lmao...nice guy but very quiet. Got to meet Calais Campbell, Aaron Ross, and Antoine Bethea too. All great guys.

As far as your draft, it seems like you guys were going BPA which is a sign you guys think you're ready. I think the Eifert pick speaks to how much you guys really think he fits your scheme. Luxury pick for sure, but I think he'll be good very quickly.


it was one of those things that worked out perfectly. They needed another offensive playmaker, and they got the best one in the draft. I know some will say Austin is the best offensive playmaker in the draft, but I think Eifert's size and leaping ability is a bigger mismatch than Austin's speed (Eifert's speed for a TE is also underrated). If you're tossing in special teams too, obviously it's Austin hands down. But just offense, I prefer Eifert.

packa7x
04-28-2013, 09:12 PM
it was one of those things that worked out perfectly. They needed another offensive playmaker, and they got the best one in the draft. I know some will say Austin is the best offensive playmaker in the draft, but I think Eifert's size and leaping ability is a bigger mismatch than Austin's speed (Eifert's speed for a TE is also underrated). If you're tossing in special teams too, obviously it's Austin hands down. But just offense, I prefer Eifert.

I much prefer Austin to Eifert...I think you're selling Austin a bit short and I think Eifert needs work blocking.

tubbs1518
04-28-2013, 09:25 PM
I much prefer Austin to Eifert...I think you're selling Austin a bit short and I think Eifert needs work blocking.

Austin is my #1 playmaker on offense, but Eifert was my #2. Also Eiferts blocking is quite good for someone coming out of college.

Bengals1181
04-28-2013, 10:43 PM
I much prefer Austin to Eifert...I think you're selling Austin a bit short and I think Eifert needs work blocking.

To each their own. I think there's a case for both.

There's nothing wrong with Eifert's blocking on tape.

packa7x
04-29-2013, 08:49 AM
To each their own. I think there's a case for both.

There's nothing wrong with Eifert's blocking on tape.

I hear ya. As far as Eifert's blocking, while its not bad, it's not exactly a selling point either.

Trumpetbdw
04-29-2013, 08:55 AM
I've been saying for weeks that Eifert will develop into a Marco Battaglia/Chase Coffman hybrid. The Bengals are a perfect spot to cultivate that level of talent.

{ }

Bengals1181
04-29-2013, 09:06 AM
I hear ya. As far as Eifert's blocking, while its not bad, it's not exactly a selling point either.


well no, he's not gonna be a Toilolo, but nothing about his blocking on tape concerns me.

packa7x
04-29-2013, 09:28 AM
well no, he's not gonna be a Toilolo, but nothing about his blocking on tape concerns me.

Eifert himself said that blocking is a weak point and that he has to improve. He's a project, but you guys have the luxury to throw him behind Gresham and let him develop. Gresham will be hungry to keep his spot.

Bengals1181
04-29-2013, 09:33 AM
Eifert himself said that blocking is a weak point and that he has to improve. He's a project, but you guys have the luxury to throw him behind Gresham and let him develop. Gresham will be hungry to keep his spot.

project as a player, or project as a blocker?


He was one of the most pro ready guys in the draft.

packa7x
04-29-2013, 10:05 AM
project as a player, or project as a blocker?


He was one of the most pro ready guys in the draft.

Blocker. He's rock solid as a receiver. I'm not trying to rip on the guy at all, I think he'll be fine, I'm just saying that he has an area of weakness.

packa7x
04-29-2013, 11:18 AM
Just a cool pic from the draft. Your boy Packa7x with Giants Safety Aaron Ross!

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/Packa7x/377197_10151854685083362_226469614_n_zps4683d0b4.j pg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/Packa7x/media/377197_10151854685083362_226469614_n_zps4683d0b4.j pg.html)

packa7x
04-30-2013, 02:01 PM
Hey was there a draft?

Trumpetbdw
04-30-2013, 04:33 PM
Hey was there a draft?

Nope. Pretty sure that was a figment of our imagination.

I get the sense that most of us are pretty happy with how our team's drafted, other than the Bills and Browns fans, who just want to forget the entire thing. Perhaps that's why the discussion died.

Rich Gapinski
04-30-2013, 05:06 PM
other than the Bills and Browns fans, who just want to forget the entire thing.

*clears throat, enters room, poops on the middle of the floor, leaves*

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 05:07 PM
I'm not sure why Browns fans hate their draft so much......any Browns fans want to elaborate.

Trumpetbdw
04-30-2013, 05:19 PM
*clears throat, enters room, poops on the middle of the floor, leaves*

Let's be fair. Kyle Long is going to be a good player at a position of need. They did well getting a couple of good LBs. I agree that Eifert should have been the no-brainer, but OL has been a gigantic need for that organization. The OL is in a much better place now than it was in January. I still think they ended up with good players who have a legit chance to become organizational stalwarts.

Trumpetbdw
04-30-2013, 05:24 PM
I'm not sure why Browns fans hate their draft so much......any Browns fans want to elaborate.

I'd guess not obtaining some additional picks, and instead trading a pick for a future pick to allow Pittsburgh to jump in and steal a potential future starter at S isn't helping their evaluation.

With 2 picks in the first 4 rounds, they were a team acting like they're some powerhouse, as opposed to a team with the needs reality states they have. I get that Josh Gordon counts for this yrs class as well, but considering the Bills traded out of their spot just 2 picks later, you'd have to guess the Browns had a chance to do the same, and still end up with Jarvis Jones, who's better than Mingo anyway.

This from someone who had liked their offseason. But prioritizing free agency over the draft has never ended well.

Bengals1181
04-30-2013, 05:27 PM
I'd guess not obtaining some additional picks, and instead trading a pick for a future pick to allow Pittsburgh to jump in and steal a potential future starter at S isn't helping their evaluation.

With 2 picks in the first 4 rounds, they were a team acting like they're some powerhouse, as opposed to a team with the needs reality states they have. I get that Josh Gordon counts for this yrs class as well, but considering the Bills traded out of their spot just 2 picks later, you'd have to guess the Browns had a chance to do the same, and still end up with Jarvis Jones, who's better than Mingo anyway.

This from someone who had liked their offseason. But prioritizing free agency over the draft has never ended well.



and it was a draft quite deep from about pick 40 on.

KabaModernFan
04-30-2013, 06:14 PM
Not to mention that Barkevious Mingo is not exactly a universally loved guy.

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 06:23 PM
If you include Gordon, Bess and the fact they gained a 3rd and a 4th next year, I had it at an A-. However I like Mingo a lot. I think he will be a really good pass rusher. Probably will be used like Bruce Irvin as a rookie this year, and I expect about the same production. I thought the Browns had a good draft, including Gordon and the trades. I'm also not sold on Shamarko Thomas. I wouldn't be surprised if he knocked himself out of the league in 2-3 years.

packa7x
04-30-2013, 06:25 PM
Nope. Pretty sure that was a figment of our imagination.

I get the sense that most of us are pretty happy with how our team's drafted, other than the Bills and Browns fans, who just want to forget the entire thing. Perhaps that's why the discussion died.

Yeah, sad though. 31 other teams besides our own to talk about.

packa7x
04-30-2013, 06:27 PM
Let's be fair. Kyle Long is going to be a good player at a position of need. They did well getting a couple of good LBs. I agree that Eifert should have been the no-brainer, but OL has been a gigantic need for that organization. The OL is in a much better place now than it was in January. I still think they ended up with good players who have a legit chance to become organizational stalwarts.

The 2 LBs they took are going to contribute right away as well. And let's not forget the Bears were active in FA. Bushrod along with Long with the addition of Martellus Bennett? Not too shabby.

packa7x
04-30-2013, 06:30 PM
If you include Gordon, Bess and the fact they gained a 3rd and a 4th next year, I had it at an A-. However I like Mingo a lot. I think he will be a really good pass rusher. Probably will be used like Bruce Irvin as a rookie this year, and I expect about the same production. I thought the Browns had a good draft, including Gordon and the trades. I'm also not sold on Shamarko Thomas. I wouldn't be surprised if he knocked himself out of the league in 2-3 years.

I agree to an extent with Thomas, though I think it will be 4-5 years and I think those 4-5 years will be stellar. Think Bob Sanders.

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 06:35 PM
I agree to an extent with Thomas, though I think it will be 4-5 years and I think those 4-5 years will be stellar. Think Bob Sanders.

I don't think he is that good personally. I think he was drafted where he belonged. Also I don't think the Browns are in a position to win in the next 2-3 which is why I don't see missing out on Thomas as a big deal. He likely will already have had the injury problem start by the time the Browns are ready to compete.

Bengals1181
04-30-2013, 06:54 PM
Not to mention that Barkevious Mingo is not exactly a universally loved guy.



yea some people had him falling as far as the 20's.

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 07:00 PM
yea some people had him falling as far as the 20's.

Really? I didn't see 1 mock draft that had him falling past the Jets at 9.

Trumpetbdw
04-30-2013, 07:00 PM
I don't think he is that good personally. I think he was drafted where he belonged. Also I don't think the Browns are in a position to win in the next 2-3 which is why I don't see missing out on Thomas as a big deal. He likely will already have had the injury problem start by the time the Browns are ready to compete.

It's not about them losing Thomas. Who knows who they had rated as their highest at that spot. It's not only missing a player, but also about trading out of the pick to give your biggest rival a player they had clearly targeted.

Bengals1181
04-30-2013, 07:07 PM
Really? I didn't see 1 mock draft that had him falling past the Jets at 9.


I've seen multiple mocks that had the Bengals taking him at 21

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 07:10 PM
It's not about them losing Thomas. Who knows who they had rated as their highest at that spot. It's not only missing a player, but also about trading out of the pick to give your biggest rival a player they had clearly targeted.

But they also keep Pitt from picking a player in the 3rd round next year, who likely IMO will have more talent and could make more of an impact. When trading picks, I wouldn't take who the team is into it. The draft is such a crapshoot, especially in the 4th that the benefit of an extra 3rd next year makes the trade worth it IMO.

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 07:10 PM
I've seen multiple mocks that had the Bengals taking him at 21

Recent ones? Would you mind linking them? I'd love to see what they were thinking.

vancemeek
04-30-2013, 08:03 PM
I've seen multiple mocks that had the Bengals taking him at 21

Mingo??

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 08:14 PM
Mingo??

Yep. I haven't see any so I'm curious who did these mocks.

mkocs6
04-30-2013, 10:31 PM
A lot of interesting points raised here in this sidebar on the Browns' draft. I'll offer a couple thoughts.


I'd guess not obtaining some additional picks, and instead trading a pick for a future pick to allow Pittsburgh to jump in and steal a potential future starter at S isn't helping their evaluation.

With 2 picks in the first 4 rounds, they were a team acting like they're some powerhouse, as opposed to a team with the needs reality states they have. I get that Josh Gordon counts for this yrs class as well, but considering the Bills traded out of their spot just 2 picks later, you'd have to guess the Browns had a chance to do the same, and still end up with Jarvis Jones, who's better than Mingo anyway.

This from someone who had liked their offseason. But prioritizing free agency over the draft has never ended well.

Yeah, this draft is going to go down, in Browns fans' minds as that year when we took Mingo and the Steelers took Jarvis Jones, and the pessimism about how that is going to turn out--which I tend share, by the way, even though I'm not exactly writing Mingo off entirely--neatly encapsulates how Browns fans feel about the state of the organization. The trade with Pittsburgh to enable them to draft a safety (a position of serious need for Cleveland, we should note) only serves to reinforce this. I'm not really sure that the Steelers will profit enormously from the trade (at least long-term), but to ask Browns fans to feel good about this is...well, asking a lot.

Now, they took a chance on Jamoris Slaughter in the sixth, who is a safety and could compete for a starting job if he comes back from an Achilles injury (sustained in September 2012). If that works out, so much the better, but it's hard to bank on sixth round pick.


and it was a draft quite deep from about pick 40 on.

This I'm not entirely convinced of. I do think that the Browns stockpiling picks for next year makes some sense. Now they have a first, a second, two thirds, and two fourths. They have, at a minimum, four picks in the top 100. While I'm not crazy about doing business with Pittsburgh, it's the first move we've made with them since 1968 and they've had the upper hand for a long time anyway. I'm not sure it could do more damage. We get a fourth-round pick from Indy, too, so that's six picks in the first four rounds. That's a lot of flexibility to move to get a player if they need one, especially if we're not in quite the right position to draft a particular quarterback we like next year. And even with a mega-trade (perhaps necessary, perhaps not), they'd still likely have picks to add more contributors.


Not to mention that Barkevious Mingo is not exactly a universally loved guy.

Agreed. I would have preferred Jarvis Jones, but I've said as much already. And I loved the Bengals' draft--Eifert was the perfect pick at #21. But again, I've already said that.


If you include Gordon, Bess and the fact they gained a 3rd and a 4th next year, I had it at an A-. However I like Mingo a lot. I think he will be a really good pass rusher. Probably will be used like Bruce Irvin as a rookie this year, and I expect about the same production. I thought the Browns had a good draft, including Gordon and the trades. I'm also not sold on Shamarko Thomas. I wouldn't be surprised if he knocked himself out of the league in 2-3 years.

We really do need to include Gordon when we think about this draft, and honestly, he did more in his rookie year than I ever could have expected. I expect good things from him next year, and I do think the offense--with a healthy Richardson, a Little who is a year older, and so on--to improve. Bess will help, but I'm still seeing a hole at tight end; when most teams are building up the position and trying to run with two, we still have (essentially) zero. Maybe we should take this draft as a vote of confidence in Jordan Cameron? It's hard to say that with his association with the previous regime, but if we're being fair, Heckert was right more often than he was wrong.

There is also, of course, the messy question of Weeden.

As I've said before, we'd better get some goddamn sacks next year. We've gone hard after pass rush this offseason, which is okay. We've got quite a rotation between DTs and OLBs at this point. I never thought Milliner was the pick at #6 because I didn't think the Browns thought they needed two elite (or potentially elite) corners to play Horton's defense, and so a play-it-safe corner in the third round (Leon McFadden) strikes me as fine. There is still a huge question mark at safety and middle linebacker, where TJ Ward (not bad, certainly) and D'Qwell Jackson (an underrated player) are looking for complements. For Jackson, he may already be on the roster in the form of James-Michael Johnson, but safety is a major worry at this point.

packa7x
04-30-2013, 10:49 PM
I've seen multiple mocks that had the Bengals taking him at 21

I didn't see any with the Bengals taking him, but many aren't big fans of Mingo. Like Tubbs mentioned, he could be Bruce Irvin, but is a situational pass rusher worth that much? I guess so if Cleveland took him, but I think it depends on whose boards you look at.

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 10:52 PM
A lot of interesting points raised here in this sidebar on the Browns' draft. I'll offer a couple thoughts.



Yeah, this draft is going to go down, in Browns fans' minds as that year when we took Mingo and the Steelers took Jarvis Jones, and the pessimism about how that is going to turn out--which I tend share, by the way, even though I'm not exactly writing Mingo off entirely--neatly encapsulates how Browns fans feel about the state of the organization. The trade with Pittsburgh to enable them to draft a safety (a position of serious need for Cleveland, we should note) only serves to reinforce this. I'm not really sure that the Steelers will profit enormously from the trade (at least long-term), but to ask Browns fans to feel good about this is...well, asking a lot.

Now, they took a chance on Jamoris Slaughter in the sixth, who is a safety and could compete for a starting job if he comes back from an Achilles injury (sustained in September 2012). If that works out, so much the better, but it's hard to bank on sixth round pick.



This I'm not entirely convinced of. I do think that the Browns stockpiling picks for next year makes some sense. Now they have a first, a second, two thirds, and two fourths. They have, at a minimum, four picks in the top 100. While I'm not crazy about doing business with Pittsburgh, it's the first move we've made with them since 1968 and they've had the upper hand for a long time anyway. I'm not sure it could do more damage. We get a fourth-round pick from Indy, too, so that's six picks in the first four rounds. That's a lot of flexibility to move to get a player if they need one, especially if we're not in quite the right position to draft a particular quarterback we like next year. And even with a mega-trade (perhaps necessary, perhaps not), they'd still likely have picks to add more contributors.



Agreed. I would have preferred Jarvis Jones, but I've said as much already. And I loved the Bengals' draft--Eifurt was the perfect pick at #21. But again, I've already said that.



We really do need to include Gordon when we think about this draft, and honestly, he did more in his rookie year than I ever could have expected. I expect good things from him next year, and I do think the offense--with a healthy Richardson, a Little who is a year older, and so on--to improve. Bess will help, but I'm still seeing a hole at tight end; when most teams are building up the position and trying to run with two, we still have (essentially) zero. Maybe we should take this draft as a vote of confidence in Jordan Cameron? It's hard to say that with his association with the previous regime, but if we're being fair, Heckert was right more often than he was wrong.

There is also, of course, the messy question of Weeden.

As I've said before, we'd better get some goddamn sacks next year. We've gone hard after pass rush this offseason, which is okay. We've got quite a rotation between DTs and OLBs at this point. I never thought Milliner was the pick at #6 because I didn't think the Browns thought they needed two elite (or potentially elite) corners to play Horton's defense, and so a play-it-safe corner in the third round (Leon McFadden) strikes me as fine. There is still a huge question mark at safety and middle linebacker, where TJ Ward (not bad, certainly) and D'Qwell Jackson (an underrated player) are looking for complements. For Jackson, he may already be on the roster in the form of James-Michael Johnson, but safety is a major worry at this point.

I agree with a lot of what you said and yes the Browns could use a safety, but lets not act like they passed on Kenny Vaccaro here. They passed on a 4th round safety who has concussion concerns because of the way he plays football. I think the biggest problem with the Browns is at the QB position, but this wasn't the year to fix it. I think stockpiling some picks for next year in case they need to trade up to get that QB was a very good idea. There are quite a few good looking ones coming out next year.

Also lets not act like a lot of people had Barkevious Mingo rated very low.

CBS Sports had him rated their #10 player and 2nd OLB
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings

Mike Mayock had him as his #2 3-4 OLB.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap1000000157812/article/mike-mayock-lifts-eric-fisher-to-top-ot-in-latest-draft-prospect-rankings

Scouts Inc. had him as their #11 player and #2 OLB.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft

All of them had Mingo over Jones.

I think you have your ILB of the future already on the squad, and lets not forget this has already been a very good defense the past 2 years. Yes I do think you should have upgraded the TE position more, but maybe you can find someone who is still a FA or who gets cut this offseason. There are some veterans out there that you could get for cheap that could make a difference. Dallas Clarke, Kevin Boss, Chris Cooley, Leonard Pope, Travis Beckum Maybe Cameron takes that next step. Regardless, this team has a lot going for them with another year for Gordon and Little, a healthy Richardson, a good O-line and a good defense. The only things that are really missing are TE and the most important position on the field, QB, but it couldn't have been fixed this year anyways.

tubbs1518
04-30-2013, 10:54 PM
I didn't see any with the Bengals taking him, but many aren't big fans of Mingo. Like Tubbs mentioned, he could be Bruce Irvin, but is a situational pass rusher worth that much? I guess so if Cleveland took him, but I think it depends on whose boards you look at.

As a rookie Bruce Irvin, I think he could be one of the best 3-4 OLB in the league in a couple years.

mkocs6
04-30-2013, 10:54 PM
Oh, and the constant trading back was just...irritating. I'm not sure if it was more or less obnoxious than when we traded three times in the first round in 2009, but at least we drafted a respectable Alex Mack and not some of the amazing first round options from that year. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NFL_Draft)

mkocs6
04-30-2013, 11:12 PM
I agree with a lot of what you said and yes the Browns could use a safety, but lets not act like they passed on Kenny Vaccaro here.

Point well-taken.


They passed on a 4th round safety who has concussion concerns because of the way he plays football. I think the biggest problem with the Browns is at the QB position, but this wasn't the year to fix it. I think stockpiling some picks for next year in case they need to trade up to get that QB was a very good idea. There are quite a few good looking ones coming out next year.

Honestly, passing on the fourth-round safety didn't disturb me, and it's not like the Browns had any control over what Pittsburgh would do with the pick. I don't think Shamarko Thomas (seriously, what an awesome name, though) would turn the franchise into a contender. It sounds like the Browns were targeting Nassib here and the Giants swooped in and grabbed him first. Oh well.



Also lets not act like a lot of people had Barkevious Mingo rated very low.

CBS Sports had him rated their #10 player and 2nd OLB
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings

Mike Mayock had him as his #2 3-4 OLB.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap1000000157812/article/mike-mayock-lifts-eric-fisher-to-top-ot-in-latest-draft-prospect-rankings

Scouts Inc. had him as their #11 player and #2 OLB.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft

All of them had Mingo over Jones.

Well, yeah, part of taking Jones would have been trading out of #6 and shuffling back to something in the 12-16 range, where we maybe could have picked up a second-rounder and it would have made sense to draft Jones or Eifurt, both of whom would have fit in Cleveland. I'm really not trying to write off Mingo, because he's an athletic freak, but it's not hard not to feel like we've seen this movie before.



I think you have your ILB of the future already on the squad, and lets not forget this has already been a very good defense the past 2 years. Yes I do think you should have upgraded the TE position more, but maybe you can find someone who is still a FA or who gets cut this offseason. There are some veterans out there that you could get for cheap that could make a difference. Dallas Clarke, Kevin Boss, Chris Cooley, Leonard Pope, Travis Beckum Maybe Cameron takes that next step. Regardless, this team has a lot going for them with another year for Gordon and Little, a healthy Richardson, a good O-line and a good defense. The only things that are really missing are TE and the most important position on the field, QB, but it couldn't have been fixed this year anyways.

I think pretty much everything you said is correct here. I like JMJ. At other positions, there are stopgaps available, and the team has the cash to sign one of them.

There was no quarterback available who was more compelling than Weeden, so he gets a second trial. That's fine. A tight end or one of the better safeties would have been nice, but you can't have everything. I think the potential power of a big move in 2014--likely to replace Weeden, let's be real--is worth it.

Bengals1181
04-30-2013, 11:23 PM
Mingo??

yep.

Bengals1181
04-30-2013, 11:24 PM
Yep. I haven't see any so I'm curious who did these mocks.


maybe as recently as a couple weeks before te draft. The chic thing to do with most people seemed to be to give the Bengals a DE because their two starters are in their final years. Before everyone and their mother started giving them a safety.

msclemons
05-01-2013, 01:21 AM
Best friend at work is a die hard Browns fan. I sent him a text Thursday night "you'll have to learn how to pronounce Barkevious Mingo now." Next morning at work he greeted me with "barkeeevious" with the same inflection that Seinfeld used when greeting "Neeewman".

mikesteelnation1
05-01-2013, 02:53 AM
I agree with a lot of what you said and yes the Browns could use a safety, but lets not act like they passed on Kenny Vaccaro here. They passed on a 4th round safety who has concussion concerns because of the way he plays football.

I find the concussion aspect quite overblown, based on the back drop the NFL has firmly put in place regarding concussions. He's had 2 diagnosed concussions. Odds are most strong safeties have a concussion history, troy did. That didn't drop his draft stock though, and it wouldn't for Thomas either, except Thomas is only 5'8". Being quite short dropped him, not having a couple concussions. It's why coach lake said the concussion history didn't play into the decision one bit.

Technique can be coached, and Thomas is very coachable. The fact we have the best db coach in the league makes me quite comfortable the bad stuff can be coached out of him technique wise.

I'll be honest, the pick was a total surprise to me. I did no research pre draft about him because of his height. We like to draft guys 6' tall for our secondary. Troy is the only starter in our secondary we drafted that's under 6' tall, and he was an exception for obvious reasons.

We traded up in the 4th using next years 3rd to get a guy I believe we had 3rd on our safety board, behind vaccaro and Elam. They assigned him a 4th rd grade based on what they felt other thought of him, and our needs. The second they thought he wouldn't be there at our 4th pick we traded a future pick for him. Something we haven't done in 40+ years. We don't trade future picks, EVER. We gambled to get value, and when that was at risk, we did what we had to for a player our FO loved. Thomas is closest to polamalu in measurables of any of the draftees in this class, except height. He will never be troy, but with some coaching up from lake I think he's got a pretty good chance of being a pro bowl guy...

mikesteelnation1
05-01-2013, 03:25 AM
Best friend at work is a die hard Browns fan. I sent him a text Thursday night "you'll have to learn how to pronounce Barkevious Mingo now." Next morning at work he greeted me with "barkeeevious" with the same inflection that Seinfeld used when greeting "Neeewman".

Quite funny clem!!

I got to watch the draft with 3 of my best work buddies, all saints fans. I planned my work schedule to be in LA specifically to be able to watch it with them. Had a Bengals and ravens fan there too. (2 pack fans, but they're not pertinent to the story).

Saints on the clock.. switching to a 3-4, and quite thin at olb. The room was 100% Jones as their pick, except me. I thought vaccaro because their secondary was so atrocious last year. Everyone spent 8 minutes calling me a fool. Pick is in.. it's vaccaro!

The saints fans made up curse words to voice their displeasure with picking vaccaro over Jones. It was almost like being told for 7 years your starting qb is Alex Smith. :)

Panthers pick is in.. waiting for the announcement. It's lotuleilei. IMMEDIATELY the screen flashes Steelers pick is in. I knew it was Jones, the apple of our eye.

I simply said "thank you Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton, you gave us Jarvis Jones". Pick was announced what seemed like 45 minutes later. Jones to Pittsburgh. The room was furious!! Still quite hilarious everytime they call me I answer the phone it's "Pittsburgh thanks you" or "how's the pass rush looking for your 7k defense" or "how does the worst defense in the history of the league get tons better with a new safety".

I have until the season starts to continue torturing them.. any ideas for one liners to keep ribbing them?

Bengals1181
05-01-2013, 08:09 AM
I find the concussion aspect quite overblown, based on the back drop the NFL has firmly put in place regarding concussions. He's had 2 diagnosed concussions. Odds are most strong safeties have a concussion history, troy did. That didn't drop his draft stock though, and it wouldn't for Thomas either, except Thomas is only 5'8". Being quite short dropped him, not having a couple concussions. It's why coach lake said the concussion history didn't play into the decision one bit.

Technique can be coached, and Thomas is very coachable. The fact we have the best db coach in the league makes me quite comfortable the bad stuff can be coached out of him technique wise.

I'll be honest, the pick was a total surprise to me. I did no research pre draft about him because of his height. We like to draft guys 6' tall for our secondary. Troy is the only starter in our secondary we drafted that's under 6' tall, and he was an exception for obvious reasons.

We traded up in the 4th using next years 3rd to get a guy I believe we had 3rd on our safety board, behind vaccaro and Elam. They assigned him a 4th rd grade based on what they felt other thought of him, and our needs. The second they thought he wouldn't be there at our 4th pick we traded a future pick for him. Something we haven't done in 40+ years. We don't trade future picks, EVER. We gambled to get value, and when that was at risk, we did what we had to for a player our FO loved. Thomas is closest to polamalu in measurables of any of the draftees in this class, except height. He will never be troy, but with some coaching up from lake I think he's got a pretty good chance of being a pro bowl guy...

Thomas was a nice 4th round get. After the top 5 safeties, who went in the first 60 or so picks, Shamarko was the best man cover able safety left in the draft.

Bengals1181
05-03-2013, 10:46 AM
I feel like this should have been figured out BEFORE drafting him.



ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk 9m
Dolphins start figuring out Dion Jordan's role this weekend http://wp.me/p14QSB-8DI9

Rich Gapinski
05-03-2013, 11:13 AM
Gee, I have no idea why I made fun of that move.

KabaModernFan
05-03-2013, 03:56 PM
God I really wanted Quinton Patton.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/01/49ers-rookie-quinton-patton-shows-up-too-early-for-work-sent-home/

Bengals1181
05-21-2013, 08:54 AM
Kaba, was there any buzz in rookie minicamp about Meshak Williams? He was a guy who always caught my eye while I was watching Arthur Brown.

KabaModernFan
05-21-2013, 04:35 PM
Kaba, was there any buzz in rookie minicamp about Meshak Williams? He was a guy who always caught my eye while I was watching Arthur Brown.

Nothing to really report on Williams so far that I've heard. He's got his work cut out for him in terms of making the team though. Stiff competition at that position group.

Bengals1181
05-22-2013, 08:15 AM
yea the Ravens quietly got crowded at OLB. How's Simon doing?


I'm really tired of the Steelers and Ravens drafting Buckeyes.

KabaModernFan
05-22-2013, 03:23 PM
yea the Ravens quietly got crowded at OLB. How's Simon doing?


I'm really tired of the Steelers and Ravens drafting Buckeyes.

Simon has been getting good reviews so far. He drew comparisons early on to Jarrett Johnson from Harbaugh, and coaches have been raving about his work ethic. He'll definitely be figuring into the rotation.