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mikesteelnation1
04-16-2013, 03:06 AM
So trumpet and I have a bit of a disagreement we'd like to debate. We thought we were going to get to in the mock thread, until Bengals1181 killed that with his selection of eifert.

We both agree the likely targets available to us at #17 are eifert, vaccaro, and cooper. Both of us agree that Cooper is our 3 rd option. Our disagreement stems from eifert vs vaccaro.

I'm firmly vaccaro, trumpet is firmly eifert. Both of us will be overjoyed if we get either, but our consternation stems from us having to choose between them.

I believe vaccaro is the better selection for a couple simple reasons. Defensive players ALWAYS sit for us their rookie year. Even troy did, and he's a sure fire hof player. Having said that and knowing he sits, here's why I want vaccaro..

No one will ever replace polamalu. He's a one of a kind player. That said I want to make sure our safety of the future gets a leg up, he might not if selected next year. I want him to learn under coach dad, be taught by coach lake, and watch what polamalu and Clark do. Lebeau may retire, lake may get an offer for promotion, and Clark and polamalu might be salary cap casualties next off season.

The base of knowledge a player gets in our defense is paramount, and they won't get a better base than the one I described above. Given no safety is considered to be thought of considerably better, if at all than vaccaro next draft, what he could learn this year is tantamount to future success. All of our "teachers" are on short arcs with the team.

Conversely the offense is still quite new given the time Ben missed, and was still hurt after. This offense doesn't require the time to grow to fill a role the defense does.

I'd prefer to give the safety of the future adequate time under the "best growing conditions" possible, as opposed to grabbing a te in the first this year.should we reverse picking a s this year in the first and a te in the first next year. The te's performance next year vs this year wouldn't have as much as a delta as the safety would, if they both were pressed into full time starter duty , next year.

Bengals1181
04-16-2013, 09:04 AM
I think it depends on what your team needs. Either I think would be a good option and I'm a big fan of both. If you asked me which I'd be more worried about going to the Steelers, it would be Eifert.

edave
04-16-2013, 12:18 PM
I think you might be disappointed.

Most of the reports I've seen project Vaccaro as a free safety rather than strong safety which I'm pretty sure Polamalu plays. If he's really a FS can he still fit in the Steeler system?

There haven't been any mocks that suggest that Eifert will go really early but he's such a unique weapon I can see the offensively challenged Jets and/or Dolphins picking him that early.

What would you think of Cordarrelle Patterson who I saw mocked to Pittsburg last week? Far from safe but enormous upside.

Bengals1181
04-16-2013, 12:28 PM
Vacarro is definitely a SS. Some sites have listed him as a FS, but he's definitely a SS.

Trumpetbdw
04-16-2013, 02:24 PM
OK mike, thanks for getting this thread started. Before I get into my points on Eifert v. Vaccaro, let me first address a couple of other draft scenarios.

Call me crazy, but I'm disappointed that the Steelers decided to match the offer for Sanders. I think a late 3rd rounder is very fair and equal value for him, and considering the $2.5 million they wouldn't be spending, along with the added flexibility another day 2 pick in the draft would have brought, I think I'd have preferred the pick. That's not meant to knock Sanders, who is a good receiver, and could be a good #2 for them. I just think considering the state of the franchise, it would have made more sense to take the pick, and the subsequent cap help.

That decision leads me to believe that the Steelers are seriously considering a trade down. SF at 31 is a team with few holes, that may see fit to try and move up to 17. Perhaps a 1, 3, and a 6 from SF is a move that both teams would consider, depending on how the draft unfolds. Honestly, even if they decide to trade down, I'd have still preferred the 3rd round pick than Sanders.

I agree with mike on our top 3 options, with Jonathan Cooper a distant 3rd. The only other person I could be talked into in that spot is if someone can convince me that Jarvis Jones' back will not be an issue, and that he's guaranteed to be the next Terrell Suggs. Short of that, taking a pass rusher in this spot would be a disappointment, and likely means that all 3 targets are already off the board.

With all due respect to my friend from the south, I completely disagree with mike that Vaccaro should be the Steelers' top target. Instead, their top target should be Tyler Eifert.

That's not to say we shouldn't draft a safety, I think there's no question that the Steelers address the safety position relatively early. I'm just not sure that Vaccaro is the answer.

First of all, Polamalu is a one-of-a-kind talent. His skills aren't matched by any safety prospect in this, nor in many drafts. But more than a safety, Polamalu is the X-Factor of the LeBeau defense, just as David Fulcher was for Cincy in the 80s, and Rod Woodson was back in the 90s. Charles Woodson plays the same role in Dom Capers' version of the LeBeau zone-blitz.

With that said, Polamalu's "X-Factor" replacement is already on the roster, in my opinion. That's Cortez Allen, who was dynamite at the end of last year when he was essentially simply asked to make plays.

Vaccaro is a very good safety who is not quite in the same class as Mark Barron was last year. Vaccaro, in my opinion, lacks the burst, and the instincts of Troy, so I'm not sure how much he'd be able to take away from watching him. If there's anyone who may have that ball-hawking potential in this draft, it may be Eric Reid, who very well may be there in round 2, or if they trade down from their spot in round 1. But even then, there is no Troy.

This team is in need of someone in round 1 to make an impact on this year's team. The best player is Ben Roethlisberger. They've taken steps to protect him, and while injuries hurt that effort last year, I expect the line to be significantly improved this year.

The two models of an explosive offense I look to in the NFL are in New England and New Orleans. These offenses are able to maintain a level of explosiveness even without a truly explosive threat on the outside. Their offenses are entirely predicated on creating mismatches in the passing game, through both size and versatility.

Tyler Eifert is the one player in this draft who can bring that offensive diversity to Pittsburgh. He is a potentially dynamic threat downfield, who can contribute immediately to their offense. Not only would he be the eventual replacement to Heath Miller, but he could also provide an insurance policy in case Miller isn't ready for the start of the season, which is important considering Miller was the most important offensive piece for Roethlisberger last year. Plus, while Eifert can learn from Miller, specifically regarding an improvement to his blocking, and what it takes to run routes in the NFL, he can do this while sharing a field with him on a consistent basis, and providing an added threat.

Eifert is in that Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham, Greg Olsen mold as a receiver, and putting him along side Heath Miller would make both even more effective.

When an offense take a personel hit like the Steelers have, the quickest way to fix it is to make it as diverse and unpredictable as possible. As mike and I discussed in a previous TopX article regarding creating the top offense in the NFL, we both agreed that a 2 TE offense is the most uncoverable offense to create, especially if both TEs are dangerous receivers, capable of lining up out wide.

Eifert is one of the best receiving prospects at the TE position to come out in a long time. With Miller's tutilage, the sky is the limit for Eifert. He's the potential dynamic threat that can finally take Big Ben, and the Steelers' offense to that next level they've been previously unable to get to.

In my opinion, Eifert is the biggest offensive difference-maker in this entire draft, and that's not someone the Steelers can afford to pass on at this point. Especially in favor of a guy like Vaccaro, who's likely to sit this year, and even after that, may not pan out to be anywhere near the type of player he'd ultimately be replacing.

tubbs1518
04-16-2013, 02:29 PM
I'd much rather the Steelers take Vaccaro than Eifert. I'd rather face Vaccaro 2-3 times a year then Eifert. I don't even have Vaccaro as the #1 safety in this draft though so.

Trumpetbdw
04-16-2013, 03:39 PM
I think you might be disappointed.

Most of the reports I've seen project Vaccaro as a free safety rather than strong safety which I'm pretty sure Polamalu plays. If he's really a FS can he still fit in the Steeler system?

There haven't been any mocks that suggest that Eifert will go really early but he's such a unique weapon I can see the offensively challenged Jets and/or Dolphins picking him that early.

What would you think of Cordarrelle Patterson who I saw mocked to Pittsburg last week? Far from safe but enormous upside.

I would not be happy if they took Patterson. Too risky, and considering the vast amount of team needs, not a pick they can afford to make. With Sanders back, they'd be smarter to look at a TE to give them a more versatile look, then grab a WR later on in the draft.

IF they were to take an offensive skill position early, I think it should be a RB over a WR. I think Eddie Lacy would be a great fit for what they want to do, but at #17, I can't see any scenario where he'd be the best player available.

mikesteelnation1
04-17-2013, 02:49 AM
As trumpet did, I'll address my other concerns that others replied with before I address the conundrum trumpet and I have.

Vaccaro is definitely going to be a ss, he's not a ball hawk coverage fs, at least at the NFL level. And I'd vomit if we picked Patterson. He's vaulted up draft boards based on his perceived ceiling. What I've seen on tape doesn't say the Steelers pick him at #17. He's SOOOOO raw. Only one year at the highest level of cfb, and his stats and the tape leave a lot to be desired. He's a project wr, IMO.

Trumpet, you make some excellent points about eifert. I'd love to have him if vaccaro isn't there for all the reasons you listed. He makes our offense so much more dangerous and unpredictable, and as a result more productive. That's the uber fan in me talking if he's our guy, but if we have a choice between the 2 the fan gets drowned out by my biz guy side. Would eifert have more impact THIS year? Of course, we know defensive players sit in our scheme. It's been a million years in NFL time since one started as a rookie. They need time to properly digest the complexity of the scheme.

Let me frame this up from a biz perspective. Our team is in cap Hell, a Hell that only gets HOTTER next season. The cap isn't expected to grow much, were going to roll over ZERO space, and we only have 35 players under contract to the tune of $113 million. That's before we extend our qb and our pro bowl center. That's before we extend our x factor in waiting in Cortez( and I agree 100%, the kids electric), our starting lde, our #2 wr, our starting nt, and our starting rolb. All before addressing the barren wasteland that is our rb situation past this year.

Smart cap wrangling in these contracts can keep us under the cap, while allowing us to add the other 14 roster spots, but it puts us right up against the cap again.

Here's the dilemma: Clark is in the last year of his deal, and polamalu probably is too. Troy has one year left with a cap hit of over 10 mil. Unless he plays most of the games and is his old self, he's a cap casualty, same as Harrison was this year. A safety isn't worth that in today's NFL, with the new cba.

Troy and Clark are likely gone, unless troy takes a huge paycut and Clark signs for the vet minimum. That leaves us with golden at fs, and a ham sandwich at ss. There are no top tier ss in next years draft class, not to vaccaro's level. There are more bonifide 1st rd te's.

Given polamalus health issues, and the empty tank of safeties we have, I want the best ss of this and the next class to learn from troy.

No one will EVER replace troy, but the tandem of a top tier talent with a year to learn (vaccaro), and golden at fs with 2 years under his belt make me a lot more comfortable with Allen being the x factor, than golden and a ham sandwich.

Ben is by far the best player on our team, but he's not in his twilight years. He can make enough plays with the guys he has, given our defense to keep us winning while the noobs on d get up to speed. I'd prefer we not ignore our roots and go all offense crazy. It certainly hasn't benefited the pats or saints in doing so. Rely on our defense, and behind our newly healthy athletic o line and zone block scheme, keep.Ben clean and let him throw his stable of skill guys open with better rushing results.

I love the mismatches eifert snd heath can create, but not at the financial stress it puts on the team. It's time to move past that...

Rich Gapinski
04-17-2013, 08:42 AM
In the current NFL, I believe in building the lines, getting a QB and getting weapons, so I support the Eifert side of this argument. Safeties can be gotten and I can't find anyone who thinks Vacarro is going to be as dynamic as the big name safeties in the league. The rules favor scoring points, so why not try to score more? The Steelers addressed the OL in the last two seasons and did some DL before that, but I would think that anything on the DL, TE or the back end of the defense would help. Of course, that keeps the S position in play for them, but I want play-makers on offense before I hope I get one on defense. Plus, and this is just my personal opinion, there's something about Vacarro that makes me think that he doesn't have the best attitude around. Call it a hunch from watching him.

Plus, in the 2nd round, I think there is a good chance to grab a quality safety. I think there is a drop off in between Eifert and Ertz.

Rich Gapinski
04-17-2013, 08:46 AM
As Steelers fans, which grouping would you rather?

1. Tyler Eifert and Eric Reid
2. Tyler Eifert and D.J. Swearinger
3. Kenny Vaccaro and Gavin Escobar
4. Kenny Vaccaro and Travis Kelce

Trumpetbdw
04-17-2013, 09:44 AM
In the current NFL, I believe in building the lines, getting a QB and getting weapons, so I support the Eifert side of this argument. Safeties can be gotten and I can't find anyone who thinks Vacarro is going to be as dynamic as the big name safeties in the league. The rules favor scoring points, so why not try to score more? The Steelers addressed the OL in the last two seasons and did some DL before that, but I would think that anything on the DL, TE or the back end of the defense would help. Of course, that keeps the S position in play for them, but I want play-makers on offense before I hope I get one on defense. Plus, and this is just my personal opinion, there's something about Vacarro that makes me think that he doesn't have the best attitude around. Call it a hunch from watching him.

Plus, in the 2nd round, I think there is a good chance to grab a quality safety. I think there is a drop off in between Eifert and Ertz.

I agree with you. I don't think Vaccaro is a slam dunk, and he's certainly not the same level of prospect that Mark Barron was last year.

I'm certainly not saying that we ignore the safety position. In fact, I wouldn't even have a problem if the Steelers spend 2 picks in the first half of the draft on safety. They are very different players, but I think they could make either Eric Reid or Shamarco Thomas work for their defense in round 2.

As far as the player with the sneaky upside in this draft, and who may have the potential to give the Steelers the closest facsimile to what Polamalu brings them, I kind of like Earl Wolff in the middle rounds. He has good game tape, performed well during his all-star week, and has game-breaking ability with his speed, instincts, and quality hands.

Grabbing at least 1, if not 2 of those, along with Eifert in the first 4 rounds would be a much greater preference to me than spending an early pick on Vaccaro. The offense became stagnant last year. Ben's injury didn't help, and they were coming around prior to his injury. But they just lost a deep threat, and have a security blanket that may still be compromised this year. Eifert can give their offense a dynamic dimension, and with the depth at safety, I really don't feel like we'd be losing anything by passing on Vaccaro and waiting an extra round.

Bengals1181
04-17-2013, 10:18 AM
I agree with you. I don't think Vaccaro is a slam dunk, and he's certainly not the same level of prospect that Mark Barron was last year.

I'm certainly not saying that we ignore the safety position. In fact, I wouldn't even have a problem if the Steelers spend 2 picks in the first half of the draft on safety. They are very different players, but I think they could make either Eric Reid or Shamarco Thomas work for their defense in round 2.

As far as the player with the sneaky upside in this draft, and who may have the potential to give the Steelers the closest facsimile to what Polamalu brings them, I kind of like Earl Wolff in the middle rounds. He has good game tape, performed well during his all-star week, and has game-breaking ability with his speed, instincts, and quality hands.

Grabbing at least 1, if not 2 of those, along with Eifert in the first 4 rounds would be a much greater preference to me than spending an early pick on Vaccaro. The offense became stagnant last year. Ben's injury didn't help, and they were coming around prior to his injury. But they just lost a deep threat, and have a security blanket that may still be compromised this year. Eifert can give their offense a dynamic dimension, and with the depth at safety, I really don't feel like we'd be losing anything by passing on Vaccaro and waiting an extra round.

I'd take Vacarro over Barron no question, and I've seen multiple analysts say they'd take Vacarro. Barron was severely overdrafted last year by about 10 spots.

tubbs1518
04-17-2013, 11:22 AM
Plus didn't Heath have a really bad knee injury at the end of the season?

Trumpetbdw
04-17-2013, 12:19 PM
I'd take Vacarro over Barron no question, and I've seen multiple analysts say they'd take Vacarro. Barron was severely overdrafted last year by about 10 spots.

I'm not trying to discount Vaccaro in any way. He certainly has a chance to be a very good safety, and I'll be thrilled if the Steelers end up with him.

But to say that he's a better prospect than Mark Barron, whether you or other analysts, is revisionist history. Barron was a legit top 10 pick last year, who some thought could have gone even earlier than #7. But because he played a season, and wasn't a pro bowler right away, it's easy to become more enamoured with the unknown of Vaccaro than with the perceived known of Barron. Scouts fall into that trap all the time, since their job is to find the next big thing. Fact is, Barron started 16 games, and was a very solid contributor by the end of the season. He is very likely to take a big next step as soon as this year.

Again, Vaccaro has a chance to be very good, but he's not quite on the same level as a prospect as Barron was.

Add in the safety depth in this draft, compared with the lack of safety depth in the last draft, and the potential of a game-changing talent in Eifert, and that's why I'm anti Vaccaro in this particular debate. If Eifert is off the board, Vaccaro would be my choice, hands down, assuming he's still there. But honestly, I think Vaccaro gets taken before pick 17.

{Of course, watch this entire discussion become moot when the Steelers pass on both to take Jarvis Jones.}

Bengals1181
04-17-2013, 12:27 PM
I'm not trying to discount Vaccaro in any way. He certainly has a chance to be a very good safety, and I'll be thrilled if the Steelers end up with him.

But to say that he's a better prospect than Mark Barron, whether you or other analysts, is revisionist history. Barron was a legit top 10 pick last year, who some thought could have gone even earlier than #7. But because he played a season, and wasn't a pro bowler right away, it's easy to become more enamoured with the unknown of Vaccaro than with the perceived known of Barron. Scouts fall into that trap all the time, since their job is to find the next big thing. Fact is, Barron started 16 games, and was a very solid contributor by the end of the season. He is very likely to take a big next step as soon as this year.

Again, Vaccaro has a chance to be very good, but he's not quite on the same level as a prospect as Barron was.

Add in the safety depth in this draft, compared with the lack of safety depth in the last draft, and the potential of a game-changing talent in Eifert, and that's why I'm anti Vaccaro in this particular debate. If Eifert is off the board, Vaccaro would be my choice, hands down, assuming he's still there. But honestly, I think Vaccaro gets taken before pick 17.

{Of course, watch this entire discussion become moot when the Steelers pass on both to take Jarvis Jones.}



I honestly couldn't tell you how Barron's season with the Bucs has gone. Don't know that I saw a single snap of his.

Barron was over-drafted. Most people had him as a late teens prospect. I don't recall anyone having him as a top ten pick.


IMO Vacarro has more value in today's NFL. Barron is best suited to be a deep safety, a centerfielder. Vacarro is far more capable IMO of lining up in man coverage in the slot, something of high value to teams. Word is some teams are even considering him playing some CB.

Trumpetbdw
04-17-2013, 12:33 PM
Plus didn't Heath have a really bad knee injury at the end of the season?

Heath ripped up his knee, yes. And while that's one of the reasons why I've mentioned that I want Eifert, it's honestly not a big one. Miller is expected to be back, at this point, by the start of the year.

I don't want Eifert just for the sake of taking the supposed best available TE. I don't want Eifert simply because Miller may not be full strength this year, or because he may only have a few years left in the tank.

I want Eifert because he's the biggest potential offensive difference-maker in this draft. I want Eifert because the mismatches he could create would give defenses fits. I want Eifert because the Steelers desperately need another big red zone target to help turn more FGs into TDs. I want Eifert because when the play is extended, he'll be virtually uncoverable. I want Eifert because he'll make Heath Miller, Antonio Brown, and Ben Roethlisberger better. A talent like Eifert, if he can fulfill his potential, opens up an entire offense. For Pittsburgh, that's enough to make him the most important player in this draft.

Trumpetbdw
04-17-2013, 01:09 PM
I honestly couldn't tell you how Barron's season with the Bucs has gone. Don't know that I saw a single snap of his.

Barron was over-drafted. Most people had him as a late teens prospect. I don't recall anyone having him as a top ten pick.


IMO Vacarro has more value in today's NFL. Barron is best suited to be a deep safety, a centerfielder. Vacarro is far more capable IMO of lining up in man coverage in the slot, something of high value to teams. Word is some teams are even considering him playing some CB.

My memory was a little fuzzy on Barron, but Mayock had him as his #7 overall prospect, and had him going #11 in the draft. Todd McShay also had him going #11. Most others had him going #14 to Dallas, mainly because they had the biggest safety need.

Just before the draft, Kiper mentioned that Barron was rising up boards. Many teams were rumored to have him as high as their 6th best available prospect. When Dallas traded up to #5, many thought it was to take Barron. Kiper compared Barron to Reid and Polamalu.

Yes, they are different players. Personally, I'm not sure Vaccaro has that burst that the top safeties have. Again, he's a very good prospect, and should be a very good pro. I'm sold on him, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of taking Eifert, which is the context of this discussion.

mikesteelnation1
04-18-2013, 03:09 AM
Heath ripped up his knee, yes. And while that's one of the reasons why I've mentioned that I want Eifert, it's honestly not a big one. Miller is expected to be back, at this point, by the start of the year.

I don't want Eifert just for the sake of taking the supposed best available TE. I don't want Eifert simply because Miller may not be full strength this year, or because he may only have a few years left in the tank.

I want Eifert because he's the biggest potential offensive difference-maker in this draft. I want Eifert because the mismatches he could create would give defenses fits. I want Eifert because the Steelers desperately need another big red zone target to help turn more FGs into TDs. I want Eifert because when the play is extended, he'll be virtually uncoverable. I want Eifert because he'll make Heath Miller, Antonio Brown, and Ben Roethlisberger better. A talent like Eifert, if he can fulfill his potential, opens up an entire offense. For Pittsburgh, that's enough to make him the most important player in this draft.

I agree with every bit of what you've said here trumpet. If vaccaro is off the board (which I suspect he'll be) this debate is moot. I love the potential eifert brings to the offense. Having said that, it doesn't address anything I replied to in the matter.

You knew I'd be quite consternate on the matter, and you haven't addressed why I think vaccaro is the better selection in my reply. More praise for how eifert makes our offense hum won't get it done here. Were not about to go all saints, and ignore defense. Eifert would be the more productive player this year, I acquise that point. But the pick isn't about THIS year, its about the next 5.

The team has tons of potential for this year, but it has just as many question marks. This isn't an all in for a final piece Lombardi year. Were past that stage. Were actually recovering from that stage. That doesn't mean we can't win it all, just simply we have too many question marks to be even slightly certain.

Were entering a year where we're changing our starting rb, #2 wr, nt, rolb, #2 cb, and many on our o line are young and unproven. Might we contend for a sb? Sure, I have faith. Are we one guy away? Not even close.

I'd rather stick to what we do, get the best ss by far in this class or next, hope the question marks play great, and snag a te in next years much better class, or later in this one. I'd rather put to bed our cap issues, and move past paying so much for aging safeties.

We're more likely to contend for a Lombardi after we answer our question marks, and fix our cap issues created by trying to retain our core for the sb runs we made.

I know I'll change my tone after vaccaro is gone, and we pick eifert. I'm forced to as a fan of the team. However, right now we're debating who's the better pick and why... :)

mikesteelnation1
04-18-2013, 04:17 AM
All I've said about our cap issues and how we're no where near in "this year mode" because of the cap issues, and I read Gb hosted McClendon today, our annointed starting nt. ANOTHER young player we don't want to lose, but might not be able to keep because of our horrible cap situation if the pack throws any real offer his way. It would require a redo of polamalus quite bloated contract to make cap space to match..

I'm fed up with this. Sick of keeping guys we shouldn't to get under the cap. I can live with a redo on Ben, ab, Timmons, and Woodley (as long as he takes conditioning seriously this off season). A redo on troy?? No way.. we shouldn't be paying a safety that much, especially when a JAG like will Allen was very good last year in troys stead. I love polamalu, but he isn't worth the contract were paying him. He's getting "the guy" treatment we give guys.

I want rid of troys contract so bad. We have played quite well without him, but since I know we hang onto "that guy" too often recently, I want the replacement to see what he does daily, until he gets hurt. I still love the flashes he shows, but I doubt his consistency in giving those.

He's not worth what we're giving him, but we're stuck because we have no one behind him.. vaccaro gives us someone behind him.

Trumpetbdw
04-18-2013, 08:06 AM
All I've said about our cap issues and how we're no where near in "this year mode" because of the cap issues, and I read Gb hosted McClendon today, our annointed starting nt. ANOTHER young player we don't want to lose, but might not be able to keep because of our horrible cap situation if the pack throws any real offer his way. It would require a redo of polamalus quite bloated contract to make cap space to match..

I'm fed up with this. Sick of keeping guys we shouldn't to get under the cap. I can live with a redo on Ben, ab, Timmons, and Woodley (as long as he takes conditioning seriously this off season). A redo on troy?? No way.. we shouldn't be paying a safety that much, especially when a JAG like will Allen was very good last year in troys stead. I love polamalu, but he isn't worth the contract were paying him. He's getting "the guy" treatment we give guys.

I want rid of troys contract so bad. We have played quite well without him, but since I know we hang onto "that guy" too often recently, I want the replacement to see what he does daily, until he gets hurt. I still love the flashes he shows, but I doubt his consistency in giving those.

He's not worth what we're giving him, but we're stuck because we have no one behind him.. vaccaro gives us someone behind him.

Yet another reason the Steelers should have taken the extra 3rd round pick and let Sanders walk. They had to see the possibility for this to happen, no?

Trumpetbdw
04-18-2013, 08:44 AM
I agree with every bit of what you've said here trumpet. If vaccaro is off the board (which I suspect he'll be) this debate is moot. I love the potential eifert brings to the offense. Having said that, it doesn't address anything I replied to in the matter.

You knew I'd be quite consternate on the matter, and you haven't addressed why I think vaccaro is the better selection in my reply. More praise for how eifert makes our offense hum won't get it done here. Were not about to go all saints, and ignore defense. Eifert would be the more productive player this year, I acquise that point. But the pick isn't about THIS year, its about the next 5.

The team has tons of potential for this year, but it has just as many question marks. This isn't an all in for a final piece Lombardi year. Were past that stage. Were actually recovering from that stage. That doesn't mean we can't win it all, just simply we have too many question marks to be even slightly certain.

Were entering a year where we're changing our starting rb, #2 wr, nt, rolb, #2 cb, and many on our o line are young and unproven. Might we contend for a sb? Sure, I have faith. Are we one guy away? Not even close.

I'd rather stick to what we do, get the best ss by far in this class or next, hope the question marks play great, and snag a te in next years much better class, or later in this one. I'd rather put to bed our cap issues, and move past paying so much for aging safeties.

We're more likely to contend for a Lombardi after we answer our question marks, and fix our cap issues created by trying to retain our core for the sb runs we made.

I know I'll change my tone after vaccaro is gone, and we pick eifert. I'm forced to as a fan of the team. However, right now we're debating who's the better pick and why... :)

My post here was simply referencing the knee injury to Heath Miller, which gave me another chance to point out why I want Eifert, and how it has almost nothing to do with Heath's injury.

Your point on Vaccaro-


No one will ever replace polamalu. He's a one of a kind player. That said I want to make sure our safety of the future gets a leg up, he might not if selected next year. I want him to learn under coach dad, be taught by coach lake, and watch what polamalu and Clark do. Lebeau may retire, lake may get an offer for promotion, and Clark and polamalu might be salary cap casualties next off season.

The base of knowledge a player gets in our defense is paramount, and they won't get a better base than the one I described above. Given no safety is considered to be thought of considerably better, if at all than vaccaro next draft, what he could learn this year is tantamount to future success. All of our "teachers" are on short arcs with the team.

Conversely the offense is still quite new given the time Ben missed, and was still hurt after. This offense doesn't require the time to grow to fill a role the defense does.

I'd prefer to give the safety of the future adequate time under the "best growing conditions" possible, as opposed to grabbing a te in the first this year.should we reverse picking a s this year in the first and a te in the first next year. The te's performance next year vs this year wouldn't have as much as a delta as the safety would, if they both were pressed into full time starter duty , next year.

I referenced the safety position in a previous post.


I'm certainly not saying that we ignore the safety position. In fact, I wouldn't even have a problem if the Steelers spend 2 picks in the first half of the draft on safety. They are very different players, but I think they could make either Eric Reid or Shamarco Thomas work for their defense in round 2.

As far as the player with the sneaky upside in this draft, and who may have the potential to give the Steelers the closest facsimile to what Polamalu brings them, I kind of like Earl Wolff in the middle rounds. He has good game tape, performed well during his all-star week, and has game-breaking ability with his speed, instincts, and quality hands.


I don't want to ignore the position. I agree completely that it needs to be addressed this year. In fact, I said previously that I'd be fine with taking 2 of these guys in the first half of the draft. I just like the depth at the S position a lot better than I like the depth at TE. I'm not sure of what's available at TE next year, but I do know that Eifert is the exact type of TE that can become a difference-maker, in the Graham/Hernandez mold. Why gamble on next year, when we can grab that now, and still address our needs at S?

Is Vaccaro the best safety available? Yes. Is it a slam dunk? No. You want a replacement for Polamalu, and I get that. But as we've both agreed, there is no true replacement for him. His replacement on defense is going to be a combo of a drafted guy and Cortez Allen. That can still be addressed in a very effective manner in round 2. The bust potential will certainly be there with whomever we take, but the same can be said for Vaccaro.

In the end, I think Vaccaro is a more likely bust than Eifert. I also think Eifert has the greater upside in helping this team both now, and long term. We agree that the Steelers as of right now are not Super Bowl contenders. And we agree that they likely won't be a legit threat this year. There are too many problems for them to try and figure out. But Eifert is a solution to that problem now, and for the next 5-10 years. I don't think Ertz, Escobar, Kelce, or any other TE would become anything more than a JAG for us.

Contrast that with safety where I do think Reid, Thomas, Wolff, etc would all have a chance to be a legit answer for us long term. And if we take one (or two), and they bust, which in my estimation is of equal likelihood to Vaccaro busting, it's not as crippling to have a bust as a 2nd round pick than as a 1st.

In my view, Eifert has the greater current and long-term upside (in relation to helping our team), and a higher floor, i.e., a lesser chance of being a bust. Plus, the alternatives to Vaccaro in round 2 are nearly his equal in terms of long term potential, and can receive the exact same benefits of sitting and learning this year.

Add in that I know you are letting your opinion that the Steelers shouldn't bring Troy back after this year skew your view on this a little bit. Personally, I think Troy is a member of this defense in 2014. I'm not sure how, but I think they're going to keep him around beyond this year. As you mentioned, it may come in the form of a restructuring in order to afford McClendon.

Moreover, the Steelers have taken a Safety in the first round of the draft exactly once. In their history. It was clear in 2003 that Troy Polamalu was going to be a difference maker, and when he fell to #16, they made a move to get him. I don't see Vaccaro as that type of difference maker. Meanwhile, their long-term starting TEs almost always come from the 1st round. From Bennie Cunningham to Eric Green to Mark Bruener to Heath Miller.

You'd be better with Vaccaro and Ertz/Escobar/Kelce/waiting till next year over Eifert and 1 or 2 of Reid/Thomas/Wolff?

mikesteelnation1
04-19-2013, 02:01 AM
Trumpet, I've enjoyed our back and forth but at this point I've got to call it quits. I can't continue arguing my point when every Steelers source that I trust believes we wouldn't select vaccaro over eifert, based on what I perceive to be inside info coming out of the south side. My opinion hasn't changed at all, but me arguing it when those "in the know" are saying different is silly.

It was a fun debate buddy, when the choice was up in the air. Now that I've read so much that it isn't, not so much... You got me here trumpet.

I know I mixed too much biz guy into my choice, added to the fact vaccaro is the only blue chip ss in either of the next 2 drafts. I really want rid of polamalus contract next year (eventhough I know he's "the guy", and accordingly will be here in 2014).

Ultimately eifert does help us more this year, and in the NFL its about right now, we'll worry about next year when it happens. That said, I PRAY we don't pick a safety in the 2nd. Colbert is not so great in the 2nd, like at all (can't judge Adams or Gilbert yet). Grab us one in the 3rd please!!

Trumpetbdw
04-19-2013, 08:20 AM
Trumpet, I've enjoyed our back and forth but at this point I've got to call it quits. I can't continue arguing my point when every Steelers source that I trust believes we wouldn't select vaccaro over eifert, based on what I perceive to be inside info coming out of the south side. My opinion hasn't changed at all, but me arguing it when those "in the know" are saying different is silly.

It was a fun debate buddy, when the choice was up in the air. Now that I've read so much that it isn't, not so much... You got me here trumpet.

I know I mixed too much biz guy into my choice, added to the fact vaccaro is the only blue chip ss in either of the next 2 drafts. I really want rid of polamalus contract next year (eventhough I know he's "the guy", and accordingly will be here in 2014).

Ultimately eifert does help us more this year, and in the NFL its about right now, we'll worry about next year when it happens. That said, I PRAY we don't pick a safety in the 2nd. Colbert is not so great in the 2nd, like at all (can't judge Adams or Gilbert yet). Grab us one in the 3rd please!!

I hear you on the 2nd round. If I believed that Vaccaro was a significant cut above the rest, I'd probably agree with you. But honestly, I don't think there's that big of a drop off between he and some of the others.

I also happen to think that if Vaccaro is still on the board, but Eifert is gone, we should consider trading down. SF may be willing to move up for either a S or a G. However, if the right deal isn't there, then I'd take Vaccaro over Cooper (who is increasingly likely to not be there), Jarvis, or anyone else that may fall.

And to be fair, when I look at lists of team needs, neither S nor TE are usually at the top of the list. I've also not seen the "in the know" opinion on the matter, although I did see a recent chat with Bouchette where it seemed that he dismissed the possibility of selecting Eifert. I've also seen a bunch of people thinking Pittsburgh focuses on a pass rusher, WR, or possibly a RB.

We now have less than a week to prepare our statements for when the Steelers end up (maddeningly) going with Jarvis Jones. I think I'll go with the "he could be the next Terrell Suggs" card. Maybe you can play the "as long as it's not another DL, I'm happy" card. Within 2 weeks, I bet we'd talk ourselves into him breaking the single-season sack record by his 3rd season.

mikesteelnation1
04-21-2013, 03:10 AM
I hear you on the 2nd round. If I believed that Vaccaro was a significant cut above the rest, I'd probably agree with you. But honestly, I don't think there's that big of a drop off between he and some of the others.

I also happen to think that if Vaccaro is still on the board, but Eifert is gone, we should consider trading down. SF may be willing to move up for either a S or a G. However, if the right deal isn't there, then I'd take Vaccaro over Cooper (who is increasingly likely to not be there), Jarvis, or anyone else that may fall.

And to be fair, when I look at lists of team needs, neither S nor TE are usually at the top of the list. I've also not seen the "in the know" opinion on the matter, although I did see a recent chat with Bouchette where it seemed that he dismissed the possibility of selecting Eifert. I've also seen a bunch of people thinking Pittsburgh focuses on a pass rusher, WR, or possibly a RB.

We now have less than a week to prepare our statements for when the Steelers end up (maddeningly) going with Jarvis Jones. I think I'll go with the "he could be the next Terrell Suggs" card. Maybe you can play the "as long as it's not another DL, I'm happy" card. Within 2 weeks, I bet we'd talk ourselves into him breaking the single-season sack record by his 3rd season.

Of course I completely disagree with trading down if vaccaro is there and eifert isn't, for the obvious reason, I would love to snag vaccaro. And the more obvious one, very few will be looking to trade up in this draft. Perhaps if a guy they love falls, but I almost think our pick is too early for that trade up, unless its Minnesota or perhaps Sf because they have so many picks. Sf will be doing much wheeling and dealing this draft.

I think they have 13 picks, and 13 picks would be too many wasted given the state of their roster. I can't see them wanting to draft more than 8 max. They're going to package picks to move up to get a guy they love, or trade them for picks in future years.

You must have read the same chat with bouchette that I read, and saw this:

"Wild Bill: Hello Ed. With all theseeming needs theSteelers have, will the first round pick at leastbe "best athlete available"?

Ed Bouchette: They might stretch that a littleto be the best outsidelinebacker available.

DormontyDawson: Ed: It's axiomaticto me thatSteelers will take Tyler Eifert. Every time Heath Miller catchesa pass, the crowd yells, "Heeeeath!" Miller cannot play forever, sadly. Who better to replace him than a guythe crowd will serenadewith, "Eeeeeeeeif!"? My logic is sound, yes?

Ed Bouchette: It's possibletheycould draft him. It's possible you could hear that from the crowd. What'snotpossible is that Eifertwill not help their passrush."

Then later in the chat when asked about how Jones would likely sit for a year, ed fired back about how there was no reason to have faith in Worilds.

Ed is generally cranky during these chats and his slogs, where he mixes what he knows with what he thinks. It's nearly impossible to know which way those comments were shaded from what HE said. Ed seems quite insistent on us taking a rush lb in the first, and Jones seems to be the top name still most likely available when we pick..

I'm ok with a olb with our 1.17, just not sure about Jones. We already have one lazy olb, not sure how getting another helps. Not sure the locker room can influence his decisions, they didn't for Woodley last year (although Woodley got his big payday already). Most of our defense is populated with athletic super freaks that live in the gym. Ike Taylor works out like a mad man year round, either at the south side complex or with Shaw in Florida. Guy only takes 2 weeks off from working out right after the season ends. Clark works out a slight notch below ike.. McClendon and hood are super hardcore gym rats. The 2 strongest guys on the team (too bad hood's technique sucks, so we never see that strength on the field), literally live in the gym. McClendon has gained 50lbs of muscle in 4 years. Harrison was right there with them before he left. Then we have our ultra super freaks of athleticism, Timmons and polamalu.

These guys couldn't motivate Woodley to follow form, so I've no faith they get Jones to do so. If he doesn't, he's a wasted pick. He's got to get significantly stronger to play rolb for us. And ed is questioning Worilds ability to perform the position? Worilds is more athletic, and knows the scheme.

If we're picking an olb, I want an athletic freak like Jordan, Ansah, or mingo. 3 guys who won't be there.

I will play the "we didn't pick a dl" card, but I won't proclaim anything about Jones until I see him do it.

mikesteelnation1
04-21-2013, 04:04 AM
The bouchette chat is what put me on high alert vaccaro wasn't likely to happen, then the dulac chat on ppg+ slammed the door. To give some background for the non Steelers guys reading this, bouchette is the 800lb gorilla with all the connections but he's quite opinionated. On anything that's not printed in the paper, you have to wade through his grouchy opinions to get to the facts, and he's almost always cryptic in what he says that points to fact.

Dulac is more even keeled in what he says on the pay site, and hes the assigned draft guy. What he says and how he says it tells me he's more plugged into the scout side. In dulac's chat the other day, he was quite effusive about eifert, and said something quite telling about how the Steelers scouts may have the board pegged.

When asked if Jones, vaccaro, and Patterson were all available who would they pick. Immediately jumped to Patterson, stating the Steelers didn't consider him raw. He stated it quite declaratively. Tells me we're looking for a playmaker on offense. Looking back on his prior statement about eifert, and effusive with praise he was, and it just seems like the cat swallowed the canary.

Reading the entire chat, and reading the subtle tea leaves, we covet eifert. Dulac tip toed around out right saying it, but by doing so told me what I needed to know. Dulac has inside info I don't have, and he's very credible. It's why I quit the debate with trumpet. As a fan I prefer vaccaro, but those who are making those decisions covet eifert. I can't debate that.

Trumpetbdw
04-21-2013, 09:34 AM
The bouchette chat is what put me on high alert vaccaro wasn't likely to happen, then the dulac chat on ppg+ slammed the door. To give some background for the non Steelers guys reading this, bouchette is the 800lb gorilla with all the connections but he's quite opinionated. On anything that's not printed in the paper, you have to wade through his grouchy opinions to get to the facts, and he's almost always cryptic in what he says that points to fact.

Dulac is more even keeled in what he says on the pay site, and hes the assigned draft guy. What he says and how he says it tells me he's more plugged into the scout side. In dulac's chat the other day, he was quite effusive about eifert, and said something quite telling about how the Steelers scouts may have the board pegged.

When asked if Jones, vaccaro, and Patterson were all available who would they pick. Immediately jumped to Patterson, stating the Steelers didn't consider him raw. He stated it quite declaratively. Tells me we're looking for a playmaker on offense. Looking back on his prior statement about eifert, and effusive with praise he was, and it just seems like the cat swallowed the canary.

Reading the entire chat, and reading the subtle tea leaves, we covet eifert. Dulac tip toed around out right saying it, but by doing so told me what I needed to know. Dulac has inside info I don't have, and he's very credible. It's why I quit the debate with trumpet. As a fan I prefer vaccaro, but those who are making those decisions covet eifert. I can't debate that.

Interesting. I've not seen the Dulac chat, so I certainly hope the tea leaves are correct. The Bouchette chat that I saw I believe is different (perhaps beginning of April) but had the exact same tone and opinions. He's clearly on the side of us taking a pass rusher, but it seems he has a strong indication that won't happen.

Wouldn't you be cranky if you were dealing with many of those Steeler fans too?

I hope Patterson doesn't happen. If Eifert is gone, and the in house choices are Patterson or Jones, I'd rather Jones, then a combo of WR/RB/S in rd 2 and 3. I really hope we don't ignore safety early. Vaccaro should be our #1 option after Eifert, but it doesnt seem thats the case. Rd 2 makes the most sense due to the depth, and hopefully that's the reason behind the apparent dismissal of Vaccaro.

If we do go WR early, the guy I'm really starting to like is DeAndre Hopkins. Maybe this hotel incident causes him to fall, but he seems like he'd be an excellent physical compliment to Brown.

mikesteelnation1
04-21-2013, 07:58 PM
Interesting. I've not seen the Dulac chat, so I certainly hope the tea leaves are correct. The Bouchette chat that I saw I believe is different (perhaps beginning of April) but had the exact same tone and opinions. He's clearly on the side of us taking a pass rusher, but it seems he has a strong indication that won't happen.

Wouldn't you be cranky if you were dealing with many of those Steeler fans too?

I hope Patterson doesn't happen. If Eifert is gone, and the in house choices are Patterson or Jones, I'd rather Jones, then a combo of WR/RB/S in rd 2 and 3. I really hope we don't ignore safety early. Vaccaro should be our #1 option after Eifert, but it doesnt seem thats the case. Rd 2 makes the most sense due to the depth, and hopefully that's the reason behind the apparent dismissal of Vaccaro.

If we do go WR early, the guy I'm really starting to like is DeAndre Hopkins. Maybe this hotel incident causes him to fall, but he seems like he'd be an excellent physical compliment to Brown.

I want nothing to do with a wr in the first round, and I'm not real giddy about one in the 2nd either. Tomlin and Colbert have been hot and cold in the draft a lot, but one area of consistency and strength is scouting wr's and getting really good ones in the 3rd or later. Whoever we add at wr, and I suspect we add two (to replace Sanders when he leaves via fa next year), with one being a bigger deep threat. I'd really like that guy to be Bailey from wvu in the 3rd, with eifert in the 1st, and the best rated safety or pass rusher on our board in the 2nd.

Bengals1181
04-21-2013, 10:38 PM
I want nothing to do with a wr in the first round, and I'm not real giddy about one in the 2nd either. Tomlin and Colbert have been hot and cold in the draft a lot, but one area of consistency and strength is scouting wr's and getting really good ones in the 3rd or later. Whoever we add at wr, and I suspect we add two (to replace Sanders when he leaves via fa next year), with one being a bigger deep threat. I'd really like that guy to be Bailey from wvu in the 3rd, with eifert in the 1st, and the best rated safety or pass rusher on our board in the 2nd.


I hope you're right as Cordaralle Patterson would be really good in your system.

mikesteelnation1
04-22-2013, 01:33 AM
I hope you're right as Cordaralle Patterson would be really good in your system.

The kid has the tools to be successful in our system, but he's got his warts too. He's a body catcher who drops a lot of balls and his ability to get off a jam is poor. He's also just a so-so route runner. That said his athleticism is incredible, and he makes plays with the ball.in his hands. However this draft is quite deep with wide receivers. It's not with tight ends, so if its between Patterson and eifert, I'm 1000% eifert. He's one of the two best tight ends of this class or next, and we need a successor to heath in one of them.

I don't value the wr position all that highly. IMO its the most over valued position in pro football. Patterson isn't likely to be the kind of player green, Megatron, Johnson, fitz, or Julio Jones is. Those kind of guys are worthy of a 1st to me.

Trumpetbdw
04-22-2013, 08:38 AM
I hope you're right as Cordaralle Patterson would be really good in your system.

If I thought Patterson was a can't miss prospect, I'd agree with you. His skill set lines up with something we'd desire, and I do think they have their eye on him.

But I'm with mike. If the Steelers go offense with their first pick, the only acceptable choice in my mind is Eifert. If he's off the board, the pick has to be defense.

The only way I sign off on a WR like Hopkins or Woods in round 2 would be if they lose out on Eifert, grab either a pass-rusher or DB in round 1, and are able to still grab a potential starting RB in round 3/4. Otherwise, WR isn't a position that needs to be addressed prior to round 3/4, as mike mentioned. And if Eifert does become a Steeler, there's suddenly no need to address WR until late.

Ideally, in rounds 1-4, they're coming away with a ball-catcher, a runner, a pass-rusher, and a DB.

I'm starting to say DB instead of S for one reason, and it's a question I want to ask mike. Do you think it's possible the Steelers could decide to transition Cortez Allen to safety? If so, does a guy like D.J. Hayden jump onto the Steelers radar as early as round 1, with a very outside chance he could slip into their spot in round 2? Then, even if they were to grab someone like Hayden, they could still jump on a safety later on. I've mentioned Shamarko Thomas and Earl Wolff as being a couple of possibilities. Wolff in particular seems like a guy with the talent to become a starter within the next couple of years, and yet may be available in round 4 or 5.

Based on the tea leaves, it's really starting to feel like the Steelers are going to grab Eifert or Patterson, if either are still on the board. If not, I'd hope they'd consider a trade down. While there's not likely to be much action at the top of the draft involving trades, I think the Steelers spot is right around the area where the draft could start to see a lot of action, with multiple teams (most likely being SF) looking to move into the middle of the first round.

mikesteelnation1
04-25-2013, 03:26 AM
If I thought Patterson was a can't miss prospect, I'd agree with you. His skill set lines up with something we'd desire, and I do think they have their eye on him.

But I'm with mike. If the Steelers go offense with their first pick, the only acceptable choice in my mind is Eifert. If he's off the board, the pick has to be defense.

The only way I sign off on a WR like Hopkins or Woods in round 2 would be if they lose out on Eifert, grab either a pass-rusher or DB in round 1, and are able to still grab a potential starting RB in round 3/4. Otherwise, WR isn't a position that needs to be addressed prior to round 3/4, as mike mentioned. And if Eifert does become a Steeler, there's suddenly no need to address WR until late.

Ideally, in rounds 1-4, they're coming away with a ball-catcher, a runner, a pass-rusher, and a DB.

I'm starting to say DB instead of S for one reason, and it's a question I want to ask mike. Do you think it's possible the Steelers could decide to transition Cortez Allen to safety? If so, does a guy like D.J. Hayden jump onto the Steelers radar as early as round 1, with a very outside chance he could slip into their spot in round 2? Then, even if they were to grab someone like Hayden, they could still jump on a safety later on. I've mentioned Shamarko Thomas and Earl Wolff as being a couple of possibilities. Wolff in particular seems like a guy with the talent to become a starter within the next couple of years, and yet may be available in round 4 or 5.

Based on the tea leaves, it's really starting to feel like the Steelers are going to grab Eifert or Patterson, if either are still on the board. If not, I'd hope they'd consider a trade down. While there's not likely to be much action at the top of the draft involving trades, I think the Steelers spot is right around the area where the draft could start to see a lot of action, with multiple teams (most likely being SF) looking to move into the middle of the first round.

I don't see Cortez Allen to safety in any way, shape or form. He was quite raw coming to us from citadel, and lake has coached him up to be a very good corner. While I can see why you'd think Allen with his ridiculous display of ball skills and all the turnovers he had a hand in during his 3 game stretch as a starter would be perfect as a safety, I see it a different way.

He's just learned to be effective at corner. I see no reason to disrupt what he's done with a position change, one he's going to have to grow into. He just now sees the field as a corner, he doesn't see it as a safety. He's too young, and still developing to think about a switch. Then add the fact that our defense didn't skip a beat in pass defense minus polamalu. Our scheme is more predicated on having 2 good corners, with the safeties being good read and react back end guys. While polamalu is a beast and helps cause so many turnovers, that wouldn't be the role they put Allen into as a safety. He would replace Clark. He doesn't have the football iq, the ability to lay wood, or the run support that Clark has. The kids been a corner his whole life, and that's the role he best fits for us.

With the departure of Lewis, and ike having only 2 years left, he's our #1 corner of the future. He causes those splash plays just fine where he is.. if a corner were to fall, I'd prefer it to be Rhodes. He's the big body guy we go after, and he's played the zone a lot. Add to that his athleticism, and I could see us picking him in the 1st if Jones, eifert, and Patterson are gone. Even above vaccaro. Vaccaro can't play fs, and Clark's contract expires after this year.

Seems we're looking for a center field fs this year, and keeping troy 100% next year. Lately our corners have been more important, especially with coach lake..

Trumpetbdw
04-26-2013, 01:03 AM
Well, this discussion was a complete waste of time. {Not that I'm bitter}...

Thanks for the Allen clarification. I think he has that hybrid skillset, so was curious if they'd consider it, depending on personnel. Either way, the X factor in the zone blitz can come from either S or CB, so it doesn't matter as far as that is concerned. Allen will take over that role from Polamalu, and play it at CB much like Woodson did back in the day.

Bengals1181
04-26-2013, 01:29 AM
I liked it. :)

Andy Freeland
04-26-2013, 03:24 AM
Well, this discussion was a complete waste of time. {Not that I'm bitter}...

It could be worse. How would you like to be a Cowboys' fan right now? I'll guarantee that 96% of them have no idea who Travis Frederick is.

Trumpetbdw
04-26-2013, 08:47 AM
I liked it. :)

Hey, if I've said it once, I've said it 1000 times. Any time you can get the next Marco Battaglia, you have to do it.

Trumpetbdw
04-26-2013, 08:57 AM
It could be worse. How would you like to be a Cowboys' fan right now? I'll guarantee that 96% of them have no idea who Travis Frederick is.

True. At least I'm happy with Jarvis Jones. I have little doubt he'll be a great player. And as the title of this thread suggests, I've been in the Jarvis Jones to Pittsburgh camp from day 1.

Rich Gapinski
04-26-2013, 09:28 AM
Because when you can take a 24 year old project guard in the first round with a dynamic tight end and a good linebacker who fills a need are available, you have to do it.

Trumpetbdw
04-26-2013, 10:21 AM
Because when you can take a 24 year old project guard in the first round with a dynamic tight end and a good linebacker who fills a need are available, you have to do it.

That's the spirit!

wxwax
04-26-2013, 01:59 PM
True. At least I'm happy with Jarvis Jones. I have little doubt he'll be a great player. And as the title of this thread suggests, I've been in the Jarvis Jones to Pittsburgh camp from day 1.

As soon as they made the pick, it felt right. Pittsburgh might be the perfect team for him.

mikesteelnation1
04-27-2013, 01:19 AM
It could be worse. How would you like to be a Cowboys' fan right now? I'll guarantee that 96% of them have no idea who Travis Frederick is.

When I saw that pick all I could think was google had to have bought the naming rights to cowboys stadium, and as part of the deal jerry had to drive 100 million hits to google THAT NIGHT. I'm sure he did just that with that pick.. as center isn't a position I explored much given the one we have, and im not a big college fan, I had ZERO idea who they picked.

Definitely googled it...

mikesteelnation1
04-27-2013, 01:39 AM
Because when you can take a 24 year old project guard in the first round with a dynamic tight end and a good linebacker who fills a need are available, you have to do it.

At least you didn't take a project center, ignoring your needs, and then follow it up with a project te who's not as good as the one you already have. {Great choice} to select Escobar when your current te is coming off a 110 rec, 1039yd year.

You guys puked in the first, but you rallied with bostic. The cowboys just kept puking, then took a wr??? Huh???

The boys didn't struggle to throw the ball. They struggled stopping it and protecting the qb. Yet 2 of 3 picks do what they already did well... And everyone is struggling to understand the one pick that addresses their protection problems.

Jerry Jones as gm at his {finest}. Is he now the new crazy al? Is he the new crypt keeper? Does he have an overhead projector???

IMO all of these picks were waaayyy off..

Bengals1181
08-14-2014, 10:16 AM
http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/gobengals.gif