PDA

View Full Version : Mike Brown explains why he passed on Hernandez, Gronkowski and Graham



Andy Freeland
07-02-2013, 11:56 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000215983/article/bengals-colts-skipped-aaron-hernandez-in-2010-draft

Mike Brown said that when the Bengals drafted Jermaine Gresham in the first round in 2010 that they passed on Gronkowski because of back problems (he had back surgery this offseason), Aaron Hernandez because of off-field concerns (no explanation necessary) and Jimmy Graham because ... oh wait, he didn't mention Jimmy Graham.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 12:02 AM
I wanted Jimmy Graham bad. I admit that it wasn't necessarily because of the stuff that he had shown on the football field, but I liked that he had played basketball and I love TE's from Miami.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 12:14 AM
Jimmy Graham wouldn't have succeeded here. He was a project at draft time. It wouldn't have been a good fit. Being with Brees and Payton was a best case scenario.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 12:24 AM
Jimmy Graham wouldn't have succeeded here. He was a project at draft time. It wouldn't have been a good fit. Being with Brees and Payton was a best case scenario.

Absolutely, doesn't mean he wouldn't have succeeded here. Probably not to the point he is now, but I think Gruden still could have made him a dangerous player.

vancemeek
07-03-2013, 12:30 AM
I think Graham would have been fine. He wouldn't have put up the ridiculous numbers he has in NO, but he would have been better than Gresham, who I'm not a fan of.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 12:30 AM
sure, but Bratkowski is the one who would have gotten him first.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 12:33 AM
sure, but Bratkowski is the one who would have gotten him first.

For the 1st year yes, just like Gresham was. However IMO Graham is much more talented than Gresham. Now Gresham isn't terrible, but he isn't near a pro bowler like he has gotten into the last 2 years. I was really against drafting Gresham.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 12:33 AM
I think Graham would have been fine. He wouldn't have put up the ridiculous numbers he has in NO, but he would have been better than Gresham, who I'm not a fan of.


to each their own. Gresham continues to take a lot of undue criticism, almost exclusively because of who was in the same draft class.

Over his first 3 years, only 6 other TE's have more catches than Gresham.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 12:41 AM
to each their own. Gresham continues to take a lot of undue criticism, almost exclusively because of who was in the same draft class.

Over his first 3 years, only 6 other TE's have more catches than Gresham.

How many have more drops? It's not always about the volume number of catches, he is completely unreliable. TE's are supposed to be great safety blankets but with him having crisco all over his hands he isn't really that. I'm so glad we drafted Eifert this year.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 12:42 AM
How many have more drops? It's not always about the volume number of catches, he is completely unreliable. TE's are supposed to be great safety blankets but with him having crisco all over his hands he isn't really that. I'm so glad we drafted Eifert this year.

thank you for proving my point.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 12:46 AM
How am I proving your point. Was he reliable in the playoffs? In one of the biggest games of his career? That is a regular thing with him and his drops.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 12:50 AM
How am I proving your point. Was he reliable in the playoffs? In one of the biggest games of his career? That is a regular thing with him and his drops.

if you can't figure it out, well that just further proves the point.




As for gresham vs graham (and I'd rather have graham), obviously this isn't strictly drops, but gresham caught 68% of his targets last year, graham 62%.

Nevermind, here you go: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/22/signature-stats-drop-rate-tight-ends/

In 2012, Gresham had a lower drop rate than Graham, Hernandez, Pettigrew, Finley, and Celek, among others.


Bengals fans are always looking to run good players out of town.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 12:54 AM
Gresham was also their lowest rated TE who played 75% of their teams snaps......not a glowing endorsement.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 12:54 AM
And for the record, I never said run him out of town, I said I'd rather have had Graham. I wouldn't release him or anything.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 12:56 AM
Gresham was also their lowest rated TE who played 75% of their teams snaps......not a glowing endorsement.

lol because PFF's grades are worth the paper they're (not) written on.

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 01:00 AM
If you know much about advanced statistics yeah a lot of them are.

mkocs6
07-03-2013, 01:04 AM
How's Gresham's run-blocking? It's an honest question, I've never really watched for it. As a receiver, I've never thought he was bad by any stretch of the imagination, but he's not quite in the same category as the guys I'd be putting in the top five in any given year of his career. A lot of good pass-catching TEs have no interest in blocking, though.

KabaModernFan
07-03-2013, 01:05 AM
If you know much about advanced statistics yeah a lot of them are.

PFF is hardly even advanced statistics. They're just game charting every player on every snap of every game, and compiling that into an overall grade.

They have their Signature Stats, but even those are hardly anything close to something like DVOA. This isn't a knock on PFF either, love those guys.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 01:07 AM
How's Gresham's run-blocking? It's an honest question, I've never really watched for it. As a receiver, I've never thought he was bad by any stretch of the imagination, but he's not quite in the same category as the guys I'd be putting in the top five in any given year of his career. A lot of good pass-catching TEs have no interest in blocking, though.

Better than most, but not perfect. He was basically a split TE at Oklahoma, so its definitely something he's had to continue to perfect. On a scale of 1-10 I'd say a 7.5-8. He's asked to block a lot more than Graham/Gronkowski/Hernandez, which plays a small part in why they have better receiving stats. They go out for more passes.


Most Bengals fans crap on Gresham because he was in the same draft class as Gronkowski, Graham, and Hernandez yet hasn't had the same level of success (and it's always ignored that those 3 guys have future hall of fame QB's throwing to them).

tubbs1518
07-03-2013, 01:25 AM
My not liking Gresham has nothing to do with them. In evaluating a player I don't look at who wast drafted around him. I look at him as a player and Gresham just doesn't overly impress me. Like I said he isn't bad, but isn't great either. A little above average to me.

Andy Freeland
07-03-2013, 02:32 AM
I would go with underachiever. He's certainly not bad, it just seems like he could be better. Don't know if that's the team's fault or his. Or mine for that matter since I'm the way making the judgement.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 10:18 AM
I would go with underachiever. He's certainly not bad, it just seems like he could be better. Don't know if that's the team's fault or his. Or mine for that matter since I'm the way making the judgement.


I think that's mostly spot on. I posted the stat awhile back, over the last 10+yrs of first round TE's, only Witten (188), Winslow (176), Shockey (183) and Pettigrew (184) have had more catches than Gresham (172) to start their career. That's some pretty good company to be in. That was 5th among the 13 first round TE's looked at. Then you toss in he's asked to block a lot.


I certainly think Bengals fans think he's underachieved (and to a point he has from a consistency standpoint), but I think part of that is because Bengals fans waited SO long for them to get a good TE, that maybe their expectations were skewed. The TE position has never been of big importance to the franchise. Gresham is entering his 4th year and already closing in on some franchise records for a TE.

He was a pro bowl alternate the last two years (and eventually made it in the game). Yes just an alternate, but I think people easily forget that even if you're JUST a first alternate, that still puts you as a top 6-10 player in the league at your position for that year. Both years with a young QB.

Rich Gapinski
07-03-2013, 10:44 AM
Yeah, we discussed it before. I remember that stat about Gresham. What I said then is what I still believe now (a whole three weeks later) is that Gresham seems like he should be so good that the tape is frustrating from what I have seen. I don't see every Bengals game in my reviews on Monday and Tuesday where I watch condensed games on NFL Game Rewind, but I have seen quite a bit. Of course, when someone has a game as bad as the playoff against Houston, it can easily cloud judgment.

Bengals1181
07-03-2013, 10:46 AM
Yeah, we discussed it before. I remember that stat about Gresham. What I said then is what I still believe now (a whole three weeks later) is that Gresham seems like he should be so good that the tape is frustrating from what I have seen. I don't see every Bengals game in my reviews on Monday and Tuesday where I watch condensed games on NFL Game Rewind, but I have seen quite a bit. Of course, when someone has a game as bad as the playoff against Houston, it can easily cloud judgment.

definitely, though plenty of Bengals fans didn't like him before that game.

vancemeek
07-03-2013, 12:09 PM
The other TEs taken in that draft have no effect on my thoughts on Gresham. Without looking it up, I couldn't have told you who else was taken in that draft. My memory doesn't work that way. Is he awful? No. I'm just not impressed either. He has the drops, of course, but he also doesn't control the ball very well, even when he catches it. He's a fumble waiting to happen. Also, he's so slow

Tigris
06-09-2014, 11:08 PM
1181, how the heck does page 2 of this place have really old threads but you have 6,000 posts?

Bengals1181
06-09-2014, 11:11 PM
1181, how the heck does page 2 of this place have really old threads but you have 6,000 posts?

Explore the rest of the site. ;)

It's more than just this Bengals section. Like Go-Bengals, there are college, draft, fantasy and general sections. Plus articles on the front page. And league wide discussion in the NFL section.

Click "Forum" up top. There is also a chat room for game days, the draft and whenever else we need it.

Tigris
06-09-2014, 11:44 PM
Screw the rest of the NFL. I'll never venture anywhere else.

... maybe the general discussion forum but that's it.

Bunghole
06-10-2014, 02:14 AM
I still believe that in the right type of system, Gresham can have a breakout type of season. His athleticism is off the chain. The issues with him aside from drops and fumbles (which I guess are related to this) are a puzzling lack of fire and focus. We've all seen his unstoppability when he goes into those beast mode moments and just trucks dudes after catching the ball. But he also has too many equally quiet games, or ones where a clutch reception is dropped or a stupid penalty on him is called.

I still believe that he was robbed on that TD catch against the Ravens.

texbengal
06-10-2014, 08:46 AM
This pretty much nailed my thoughts as well. No question about his abundant talent. He's one of the few TEs in the NFL who can block well, catch, get open deep or short, and run after the catch... Whether it's dragging guys or running away from LBs.

It's the time where he seems to lose focus, and he drops a pass, is careless with the ball, or commits a silly penalty that is maddening to me. I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but I swear it seems to happen every game. If he could cut that down some, he'd really be something, although he's certainly a good player now.

Bengals1181
06-10-2014, 08:51 AM
I still say Gresham would get more respect if they didn't use him so much in pass pro.

1) He's ok at it, but he's a much better run blocker IMO.

2) It severely cuts into his targets. Jimmy Graham had SEVENTY-EIGHT more targets than Gresham last year. Graham had more than double the targets Gresham had.



Also, it bears remembering, Gresham missed out by 4 catches (he missed 2 1/2 games) from joining Mike Ditka as the only TE's in the history of NFL to start their career with 4 straight 50 catch seasons.

mongo
06-10-2014, 08:51 AM
No doubt about it, he brings the stadium to their feet when he drags dudes down the field. He also makes you want to choke him when he gets bone-headed.

membengal
06-10-2014, 09:22 AM
Problem is, I don't think whatever is holding him back that lives between his ears is ever getting fixed. This is who he is, mentally.

mongo
06-10-2014, 09:27 AM
Problem is, I don't think whatever is holding him back that lives between his ears is ever getting fixed. This is who he is, mentally.

That's certainly my fear as well... The only thing I can point to is that Tiki Barber drove his team crazy with boneheaded fumbles the first several years of his career, but then sorted it out.

membengal
06-10-2014, 09:44 AM
Hope so. But it's not just the fumbles, it's also the penalties and blown assignments etc. He should be a monster, and the frustrating part is we only see flashes of that.