PDA

View Full Version : Hue Jackson: I'd jump off a building with Andy Dalton



Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 12:04 AM
Appearing Wednesday on the NFL Network's Top 100 Reaction Show, A.J. Green (http://www.nfl.com/player/a.j.green/2495450/profile) left no doubt abouthis high regard (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000364276/article/aj-green-only-wants-andy-dalton-throwing-him-passes) for Andy Dalton (http://www.nfl.com/player/andydalton/2495143/profile) as the Cincinnati Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN) quarterback.






New coordinator Hue Jackson (http://www.nfl.com/player/huejackson/2517259/profile) has gone a step further, telling NFL Media columnist Michael Silver that he and Dalton are "joined at the hip."
"We are tethered together. And I'll jump off a building with this guy (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000363337/article/andy-dalton-and-hue-jackson-cincinnati-bengals-odd-couple)," Jackson told Silver, "because I believe in the things he's trying to accomplish with his career, and I think I can help him."
Jackson's public support is no surprise. As NFL Media analyst Bucky Brooks explained on the Around The League Podcast (http://www.nfl.com/podcast/aroundtheleague-podcast) last month, Jackson's style is to challenge his players while simultaneously raising expectations and dishing out hyperbole.
His comments to Silver come just a week after declaring the Dalton-Green connection the best in the business (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000362383/article/hue-jackson-andy-dalton-aj-green-best-qbwr-duo). The Dave Dameshek Football Podcast promptly called Jackson's bluff, rattling off 10superior quarterback-receiver tandems (http://davedameshek.nfl.com/2014/07/01/ddfp-271-the-best-qb-wr-duos-cj2k/).
In a moment of candidness, Jackson acknowledged earlier in the offseason that Dalton must play better (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000341138/article/hue-jackson-andy-dalton-must-be-better-for-bengals) on the NFL's biggest stage to get the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN) over the postseason hump.
















That statement jibes with reports out of Cincinnati that Jackson wants to emulate the Seahawks (http://www.nfl.com/teams/seattleseahawks/profile?team=SEA)' run-heavy approach (http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hobsons-Choice-Taylor-made-roster/65f7da74-b6ae-4e83-b38d-ddc41e5115eb?campaign=cin:fanshare:facebook) as a means toward decreasing Dalton's turnover sprees and bouts of inconsistency while preparing the offense (http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hobsons-Choice/089483fc-2611-4386-9634-b4f219f95874?campaign=cin:fanshare:facebook) for the grind-it-out nature of the NFL playoffs.
It's not a great sign for Dalton's market value that his coaching staff is planning to decrease the quarterback's responsibilities in a make-or-break contract year (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000338224/article/andy-dalton-cincinnati-bengals-in-contract-talks).
If Dalton ends up getting his wish (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000354749/article/marvin-lewis-cutlers-deal-holding-up-dalton-talks) for a contract on par with those of Jay Cutler (http://www.nfl.com/player/jaycutler/2495824/profile) and Tony Romo (http://www.nfl.com/player/tonyromo/2505354/profile), the pressure will be on Jackson to ensure that his quarterback starts playing like the face of the franchise come January.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000364379/article/hue-jackson-andy-dalton-and-i-are-tethered-together

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 12:08 AM
Andy Dalton and Hue Jackson: Cincinnati Bengals' odd couple








CINCINNATI -- On a mid-June morning at Paul Brown Stadium, Andy Dalton (http://www.nfl.com/player/andydalton/2495143/profile) sits attentively at the start of a quarterbacks meeting, softly reciting a polysyllabic play call while watching tape of his perfectly timed sideline throw to star wideout A.J. Green (http://www.nfl.com/player/a.j.green/2495450/profile) from the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN)' practice the previous afternoon. It's a sequence that speaks volumes about the polarizing fourth-year pro's poise, maturity and mastery of the Cincinnati offense, yet the man in charge of the attack would like Dalton to pump up the noise.
"Way to be decisive, get it out of your hand and complete it to our guy," offensive coordinator Hue Jackson (http://www.nfl.com/player/huejackson/2517259/profile), seated in the corner of quarterbacks coach Ken Zampese's office, says to Dalton, who garners nods of approval from fellow passers Jason Campbell (http://www.nfl.com/player/jasoncampbell/2506364/profile), AJ McCarron (http://www.nfl.com/player/ajmccarron/2543497/profile) and Matt Scott (http://www.nfl.com/player/mattscott/2539647/profile). "I like how you made the call, but I still think, to a man, we need to be louder, more demonstrative. Because we play in some loud stadiums."


http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2014/07/10/0ap2000000364361.jpg


Upon taking over as the Cincinnati Bengals' offensive coordinator this offseason, Hue Jackson called Andy Dalton to express confidence in him as the team's starting quarterback. (Al Behrman/Associated Press)



Then, in a reference to Dalton's soon-to-be-first-born child, Jackson smiles broadly and adds, "Get out of the 'street voice' you practice for Noah. You need to use your 'road voice.' Get it so loud, it's to the point where you're embarrassed."
In essence, Jackson is telling Dalton to be more like him -- adding yet another intriguing layer to their strikingly symbiotic relationship. It's not a stretch to declare that, despite notably productive pasts, this frequently lampooned coach and his oft-maligned quarterback are about to embark upon a season that will define them both, each man leaning heavily on the other.
Whether as a punching bag or a punch line, Jackson and Dalton have plenty of experience when it comes to falling out of favor with the football-watching masses. Their personalities might be very different, but their challenge is the same: Join forces to secure the franchise's first postseason victory since the 1990 season, and win over a skeptical public.
As the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN), fresh off a third consecutive playoff flameout, strive to reach the next level, the unfailingly brash Jackson and the relentlessly reserved Dalton are immersed in a shared quest for salvation. Either they'll help elevate the franchise and reap the commensurate rewards, or they'll faceplant with a resounding thud.
"We are joined at the hip," Jackson concedes while enjoying a happy-hour beverage at a downtown Cincinnati bar, about 10 hours after coaching up Dalton in that quarterbacks meeting. "We are tethered together. And I'll jump off a building with this guy, because I believe in the things he's trying to accomplish with his career, and I think I can help him."
On the surface, this is a bigger mismatch than Super Bowl XLVIII (http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/48): a not-so-fiery redhead getting prodded by a smooth-scalped, swagger-laced strategist who famously bragged about "building a bully" (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6035552)during his topsy-turvy stint as the Oakland Raiders (http://www.nfl.com/teams/oaklandraiders/profile?team=OAK)' head coach. Yet Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN) coach Marvin Lewis (http://www.nfl.com/player/marvinlewis/2519463/profile) didn't hesitate to entrust the development of his young quarterback -- and, quite possibly, his own professional fate -- to Jackson after former Cincinnati offensive coordinator Jay Gruden (http://www.nfl.com/player/jaygruden/2539437/profile) was hired as Washington's head coach (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000311077/article/jay-gruden-next-coach-of-washington-redskins) in January.






"We all have a lot on the line," Lewis says. "This is big. This is a great marriage between Hue and Andy, with a lot at stake."
The potential payoff is substantial. For Jackson, who showed so much promise while guiding the Raiders (http://www.nfl.com/teams/oaklandraiders/profile?team=OAK) to a 7-4 start in 2011 -- his first and only season as a head coach -- before losing his job and enduring what amounted to a two-year stint in professional purgatory, the possibility of getting another shot to run an NFL team beckons.
For Dalton, whose three-turnover performance in a 27-10 home playoff defeat (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014010500/2013/POST18/chargers@bengals#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap20 00000310644&tab=recap&recap=fullstory) to the San Diego Chargers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/sandiegochargers/profile?team=SD) in January continued a pattern of postseason futility, there's an opportunity to vault himself into the NFL's upper echelon of passers -- and to be compensated accordingly. As he and the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN) attempt to hammer out a lucrative long-term deal that will likely exceed $100 million in total value, Dalton relishes the chance to raise his game and make some noise.
By all accounts, Dalton has embraced the transition from the far more relaxed Gruden, his coordinator during his first three seasons in Cincinnati, to Jackson, whose coaching style is about as subtle as a Blake Griffin dunk. Shortly after Jackson was promoted from the position of running backs coach in the wake of Gruden's departure, he placed a phone call to Dalton, and an immediate alliance was formed.
Recalls Dalton: "The first thing he said was, 'You're my guy. We're gonna do this thing together. You're the guy that's gonna take us to where we want to go.' It's exactly what I wanted to hear, and exactly what this team needs. You want to know, from the top down, that they've got your back."
In the same conversation, Jackson told Dalton that "things will be different. We have to be better. And I'm going to coach you hard. If you'll allow me to push you, we can get to where we both want to go." Dalton, the coach recalls, "was receptive. He didn't even blink. He said, 'Coach, let's go.' I'm very proud of the fact that he's allowing me to coach him. He wants to be great."
So here Dalton is, on a muggy Tuesday afternoon, taking part in what will turn out to be the final day of offseason workouts, directing the first-team offense during a spirited practice at nearly empty Paul Brown Stadium, trying to incorporate Jackson's coaching points while coaching up his teammates in the process.
The first thing that jumps out is the tempo. Jackson, who directed top-10 offenses in 2010 (as coordinator) and 2011 (as head coach) in Oakland, is one of many men in his profession who have gravitated toward accelerating the pace in an effort to dictate to the defense.
"I think that maximizes a lot of Andy's abilities," Lewis says. "His anticipation on throws is one of his incredible skills and talents that he has innately. And if we speed things up, that really makes it effective."
Given that Dalton, in Jackson's words, "can assimilate a lot of information and get it to the proper people very quickly," this high-octane approach theoretically plays to the quarterback's strengths. He also has a plethora of young, talented playmakers at his disposal, from Green (already one of the game's top receivers entering his fourth season) to emerging wideout Marvin Jones (http://www.nfl.com/player/marvinjones/2532884/profile), versatile tight ends Jermaine Gresham (http://www.nfl.com/player/jermainegresham/497238/profile) and Tyler Eifert (http://www.nfl.com/player/tylereifert/2540148/profile) and elusive second-year pro Giovani Bernard (http://www.nfl.com/player/giovanibernard/2540156/profile) at running back. Says Dalton: "A lot of things we're doing is getting our guys in space. When you've got athletic guys like we do, that's what you want."
One thing Jackson clearly doesn't want is for Dalton -- or his offensive teammates -- to feel overly comfortable. While the coach is highly complimentary of Gruden, it's no secret around the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN)' facility that the atmosphere has become far more charged (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000311289/article/jay-gruden-hiring-greatly-impacts-robert-griffin-iii-andy-dalton) since Jackson took over.
"Andy definitely seems different," says Jones, a fifth-round draft pick in 2012 who had 10 touchdown catches among his 51 receptions last season. "He's really taken this offensive tempo and the aggression of Coach Jackson and he's running with it. He's slinging the ball with a lot of velocity and he's confident in it."
Says veteran cornerback Terence Newman (http://www.nfl.com/player/terencenewman/2505552/profile): "It seems like (Dalton's) a lot more confident, and like he has more freedom. He's getting rid of it and just letting it rip. Hue's gonna have those guys 'going H.A.M.' over there."
In the eyes of Gresham, who's coming off a somewhat disappointing 46-catch campaign, the switch to Jackson was the best thing for Dalton's development.
"Hue should be a head coach, but he's not, and he has a lot to prove," Gresham says. "And so does Andy. He's gotten a lot of flak, but he's been the starter since Day 1, and he's put up numbers that a lot of us haven't. I know I'm one of those that haven't. We need to take that next step as an offense, and I think Andy's ready. He's got a little more of an edge to him.


http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2014/07/03/0ap2000000363315.jpg


Andy Dalton and A.J. Green have been the second-most productive quarterback-receiver combo (3,705 yards) in the NFL since 2011. (Associated Press)



"One thing about Hue, he will get the most out of that redhead, because he won't settle for anything less than excellence. It can't be mediocre. It can't be good. It has to be great."
And in the process of demanding greatness from his quarterback, Jackson is simultaneously empowering Dalton, enlisting him as an ally and giving him ownership in the offense.



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000363337/article/andy-dalton-and-hue-jackson-cincinnati-bengals-odd-couple

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 12:08 AM
"He's told me that (in practice) he's gonna get the play in, and then he's gonna go talk trash to the defense and let me control everything," Dalton says, laughing. "That's his personality."
Dalton's personality is far less forceful. Quarterbacks might tend to be cocksure, suck-the-air-out-of-the-room extroverts, but Dalton comes from the Eli Manning (http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/profile)school of low-key leadership.
"I'm a little more chill," Dalton says. "I'm not someone that's gonna get up in your face all the time and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I don't think I have a temper. I try to have as much patience as possible. One thing they're really trying to stress is that it's my team; I've gotta take control of everything. For me, it's growing into that, making sure guys know that if they're not doing something right, that it's gonna affect me and affect the outcome of the play."
Says Lewis: "Yeah, he's a low-key guy, no doubt. His personality away from here, his personality with his family can be what it is. His personality here has to be different than that."
For better or worse, it has to be more like Jackson's. And Dalton has, in fact, become more assertive among his teammates. On this particular Tuesday, he responds to a poor snap from fourth-round draft pick Russell Bodine (http://www.nfl.com/player/russellbodine/2543622/profile), who is slated to become the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN)' starting center, by pulling aside the rookie and telling him he has to do better.
It's a scene that Zampese later cites as evidence of Dalton's progress as a leader, saying, "I saw it there the last couple of practices, where he actually hunted down the center after bad snaps and told him, 'This is unacceptable.' Then he told him, 'I need you.' Those two things together, the message will be very well-received."
Rather than bristle at the rough patches Dalton and his teammates encounter at practice, Jackson welcomes the struggle. The previous evening, at Jeff Ruby's Steakhouse, shortly after chatting up the proprietor, Jackson had confided that he hoped the offense would encounter some adversity during the final full-team workout before training camp.



"Anybody can go back and complete a bunch of passes when the protection is there and guys are open and the play isn't breaking down," the coach had said. "But when things start to fall apart -- those are the moments I'm looking for. Sure, we want to install an offense. But we're also building a quarterback, and those moments are more important toward that end. I want there to be chaos. I want to see how he reacts in those situations.
"To me, that's the Achilles' heel of a quarterback: Everything's not always gonna go right. So at the end of the day, you have to have those situations where things are not looking as good, so you can get out of them. I need to know, under pressure, that you will make the right decisions for our football team, and not for the football player. He's done that."
There are times when Dalton has handled the pressure admirably, such as a dizzying four-game stretch last October that earned him AFC Offensive Player of the Month (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000274118/article/andy-dalton-calvin-johnson-lead-players-of-the-month) honors. In leading the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN)to four consecutive victories, Dalton completed 89 of 131 passes for 1,246 yards with 11 touchdowns, three interceptions and a passer rating of 116.8.
Yet consistency has been an issue: Just four quarterbacks threw more interceptions than Dalton's 20 in 2013, and he has had his share of stinkers during each of his three seasons. His playoff numbers have been downright putrid -- one touchdown, six interceptions, an 0-3 record and an anemic 26 offensive points produced.
There's only one way to erase that stigma. "I've got to get a win," Dalton says. "That's what it comes down to. Everybody's gonna say, 'Oh, he doesn't play well in the playoffs ...' They say that until you do it, and until you win. And as long as the team wins, it'll shut everybody up."
Fortunately for Dalton, his bosses are far less doubtful than outside observers. The Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN), Lewis insists, are committed to Dalton as their franchise quarterback, and they'll likely put their money where their mouth is.
He clearly wants to stay in Cincinnati. Drafted in the second round out of TCU after incumbent Carson Palmer (http://www.nfl.com/player/carsonpalmer/2505245/profile) informed the organization he wanted to play elsewhere -- and would retire rather than fulfill his contractual commitment to the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN) -- Dalton became an immediate starter and developed a strong sense of loyalty to the organization.With one year remaining on his rookie deal, Dalton hopes to finalize an extension with the team before the start of the season. If not, this could truly be a make-or-break campaign, though the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN) could ensure his continued presence in 2015 via the franchise tag, should they so choose.
"Absolutely," says Dalton, whose wife, Jordan, gave birth to their son, Noah Andrew, (https://twitter.com/andydalton14/status/484096204968452099) on June 30 (http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Dalton-babies-his-receivers/ca6df3c3-ee40-4c2a-8ab2-08978464e410). "I came into a great opportunity. I'm not gonna get into the whole Carson thing, but Carson wasn't here. And he said he wasn't gonna be here, that he was over playing here, and I came in and got a great chance to start right away. I've embraced the city -- I have a foundation that we're really involved in -- and my wife and I love it here."
That's another common thread between Dalton and Jackson. Having served as the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN)' receivers coach from 2004 to '06 -- a stretch that coincided with the team's first playoff appearance in 15 years and highly productive seasons by receivers Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh -- Jackson developed a strong relationship with Lewis, the team's coach since 2003, and with owner Mike Brown (http://www.nfl.com/player/mikebrown/2535882/profile). (Jackson's familiarity with Brown contributed to the infamous "greatest trade in football" (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--pump-the-brakes--raiders--trade-for-carson-palmer-wasn-t-nearly-as-bad-as-some-claim-140818102.html) that sent Palmer from the Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN) to the Raiders (http://www.nfl.com/teams/oaklandraiders/profile?team=OAK) midway through the 2011 campaign.)
After getting fired following an 8-8 season in which the Raiders (http://www.nfl.com/teams/oaklandraiders/profile?team=OAK) narrowly missed the playoffs, Jackson struggled to find a landing spot in early 2012, receiving only one interview for an offensive coordinator position (from the St. Louis Rams (http://www.nfl.com/teams/st.louisrams/profile?team=STL), who instead chose Brian Schottenheimer) and no offers. Lewis essentially threw Jackson a lifeline, bringing him aboard as an assistant secondary and special teams coach.
The following year, longtime running backs coach Jim Anderson was nudged into retirement, facilitating Jackson's move back to offense, with an additional "assistant to the head coach" title. That gave Lewis a viable succession plan and peace of mind when Gruden, as expected, became a hot head-coaching candidate. Jackson's near-instant promotion was not especially good news for former Bengals (http://www.nfl.com/teams/cincinnatibengals/profile?team=CIN)defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer (http://www.nfl.com/player/mikezimmer/2541769/profile), who, after landing the Vikings (http://www.nfl.com/teams/minnesotavikings/profile?team=MIN)' head coaching job later in January, hoped to bring his good friend Jackson to Minnesota as his offensive coordinator.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000363337/article/andy-dalton-and-hue-jackson-cincinnati-bengals-odd-couple

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 12:23 AM
that ended up being a really great article.

dex
07-11-2014, 05:27 AM
that ended up being a really great article.

For sure. I've been complaining about a lot of the national media Bengals articles this summer, but that was an awesome read.

coup000
07-11-2014, 10:20 AM
One line that was probably written almost as a throw away...but has anyone seen it mentioned before that Jim Anderson was "nudged" into retirement?

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 11:06 AM
One line that was probably written almost as a throw away...but has anyone seen it mentioned before that Jim Anderson was "nudged" into retirement?

yea I noticed that. I took it as conjecture by the author.

coup000
07-11-2014, 11:34 AM
Me too. Not to take away from the point of the article, it was a good one. Kind of expected from Silver, he loves Hue. He even managed to get Gresham to speak...and refer to Andy as "that redhead".

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 11:44 AM
lol yea I chuckled at "that redhead".


There certainly could be more to the Anderson thing, but the impression I got from him when Hobson caught up with him awhile back was that Anderson is loving retirement. I didn't get any impression that he was forced out or that he was missing coaching.


Besides, nudging guys out isn't Mike Brown's style. Especially to a guy who's been with the organization so long.

coup000
07-11-2014, 05:07 PM
Some people will completely dismiss this because of the source, but I have to admit it worries me a bit. For a guy who supposedly lives off his accuracy and anticipation, these numbers don't look great

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/catch-radius-denver-vs-dvoa-vs-dalton

The summary (a whole lot more info in the link)

Now I think I know why Green heavily supports Dalton. Green just said this week "I don't want any other quarterback throwing me the ball." It's because he helps him create a freakishly great highlight reel with inaccurate throws, right? I wouldn't have ranked Green in my top five receivers the other day, but I think I will now.

I'm probably overreacting to 149 completions, which I said included many good throws by Dalton. But when offensive coordinator Hue Jackson recently proclaimed Dalton and Green as the best quarterback/receiver duo in the league right now, did he factor in the throws or was he just in awe of the catches the same way I am?

No one can say Dalton is afraid to give Green a chance to make him look good. Perhaps we would find better results for him if looking at 2011-12, but that would be missing the point. Dalton should have been better in his third season. If the Bengals win even one playoff game -- something they haven't done since the 1990 season -- this year, Dalton stands to become a very rich man in today's quarterback market. But if he doesn't improve and is relying on Green and Jones to make so many great catches, why should Cincinnati invest so much into him?

As this study has shown so far, highlight-reel catches are rare. When an offense starts relying on them, the quarterback's not making enough good reads and accurate throws. This exercise has brought great news for those interested in Green's ability, but there's a reason they call the NFL a passing league, and not a catching league. Caught or not, Dalton has to throw better passes in 2014. Roger Goodell hasn't added style points (yet).

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 05:14 PM
haven't read all that yet, but in general I think DVOA is in the area of "overanalysis".


As for that one example of Marvin Jones against Baltimore, it was a great catch because his right arm was being held and it slowed him down. The throw was actually damn near perfect.

As was the the Detroit example.


There's some good examples in there to support his point (ie Chicago), but some of those are just really bad examples. There's throws where the WR bails out their QB, and there's throws where the QB puts it in a position for his guy to make a play. Some of those examples are the latter.

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 05:20 PM
good examples IMO:

(minus the Buffalo and Minnesota ones, which I see nothing wrong with - hell the Buffalo one is a great throw and both Wilcots and Boomer even said so on the telecast)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/images/AJG_COLL.jpg

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 05:39 PM
there's nothing wrong with any of these three. The Baltimore one was perfect, the Detroit one put it in a spot to let Jones make a play, and the Buffalo one isn't nearly as inaccurate as the author suggests. Dalton threw it wide to get it around a leaping defender (all three plays are in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjzdq3KEVh8)


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/images/MJones_COMP.jpg


I'm all for solid examples like the AJ ones above, but there's some really disingenuous examples in that article. I also kind of struggle reading an article that says "I left the game underwhelmed with the QB's accuracy" when said QB had a 71% completion percentage in the game.

Not every great catch = bad throw.

coup000
07-11-2014, 05:39 PM
I don't think DVOA is used much in that article as it relates to Dalton, it is really just charting the completions and how accurate they were. Of course there is always going to be some subjectivity in that, but the fact he seems to have such a low % of chest high throws is a bit odd.

I agree with you on the Buffalo and Minny throws, especially in the end zone sometimes the only place a throw can go is where the WR is going to have to make a good catch. A ball right to the WR would get picked or knocked away. But some of those others were not great.

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 05:43 PM
I don't think DVOA is used much in that article as it relates to Dalton, it is really just charting the completions and how accurate they were. Of course there is always going to be some subjectivity in that, but the fact he seems to have such a low % of chest high throws is a bit odd.

I agree with you on the Buffalo and Minny throws, especially in the end zone sometimes the only place a throw can go is where the WR is going to have to make a good catch. A ball right to the WR would get picked or knocked away. But some of those others were not great.


yea like I said I haven't read through the first 2 thirds yet, just saw DVOA a few times (which IMO is analysis overkill). Have just seen the bottom stuff on the Bengals.

I just struggle with that article. It makes the assumption that every great catch is the result of a bad throw. In reality, some of those were great ball placement allowing your playmakers to make plays. The receivers made great plays, but in part because Dalton gave them a chance to.

dex
07-11-2014, 05:51 PM
Me too. Not to take away from the point of the article, it was a good one. Kind of expected from Silver, he loves Hue.

Having just researched Oakland under Jackson to get a feel for what our offense might look like, it certainly sounded like he has some strong supporters but plenty of detractors too. Definitely seemed to be a polarizing figure with the Raiders, which was one reason why he was kicked to the curb despite some moderate success with the team.

Still am having trouble imagining what the Bengals offense might look like under Jackson, given all the different and sometimes contradictory quotes coming out of the OTAs. I just wish there was another NFL offense that it could be accurately compared too, so I could have a better idea of what it might look like when the regular season opens. Right now piecing all the descriptions together the offense sounds like it could be pretty unique, which is both exciting and at least a little scary. Will definitely be interesting to see how it develops and maybe evolves, though.

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 05:54 PM
IMO Jackson mainly was kicked to the curb because of the Carson trade. It certainly wasn't because his team underperformed.

He went all in for Carson, and when it didn't work, he was the fall guy.

Oldcat
07-11-2014, 06:01 PM
If you have a receiver who can make great catches, you would be a fool to never let him use that talent and risk getting intercepted by all the top defenders we play every year.

And when throwing the blame around, you better not avoid the balls AD has thrown right to him, that were dropped. It isn't like that never happens.

Oldcat
07-11-2014, 06:06 PM
And again, using coup's quote about "he (Dalton) should have been better in his third year". Well, he set franchise records in pass yards and TDs in a very tough division. While I'd like fewer turnovers myself, casting him as a potential failure is absurd.

dex
07-11-2014, 06:10 PM
IMO Jackson mainly was kicked to the curb because of the Carson trade. It certainly wasn't because his team underperformed.

He went all in for Carson, and when it didn't work, he was the fall guy.

That may be the case. But just going through archives of Raiders stories during the short Jackson era, including some before the Palmer trade even happened, he was definitely rubbing some people the wrong way. It's possible that Jackson is one of those guys who's meant to be a coordinator rather than a head coach. Of course if he ever gets another shot, maybe he will have learned from his Raiders experiences what he can or cannot say to players, management, the media. He seems to have a bit of Rex Ryan in his coaching makeup, which probably works better in some places than others.

coup000
07-11-2014, 06:20 PM
And again, using coup's quote about "he (Dalton) should have been better in his third year". Well, he set franchise records in pass yards and TDs in a very tough division. While I'd like fewer turnovers myself, casting him as a potential failure is absurd.

That's not "my" quote, it's a quote from the article. I think you guys are being a little hard on the author, he is looking at a very specific aspect of the game, how accurate are a QBs completions. All of his data is based on this. In doing so he found the Green and MJ seemed to have a relatively low % of their catches in the "accurate" category. What he deems accurate is of course subjective, but you would expect that he would be somewhat consistent as he didn't only look at Dalton/Bengals WRs. Some people have also brought up the fact that sometime QBs smartly throw it farther away a guy to lead him open, but again, all QBs do this so those would be reflected in the numbers as well. Yet Dalton still appears to be more inaccurate than most other QBs, using this particular measure. I think it is an interesting look at the data. He said he plans to look at the lower half of QBs next week so it will be interesting to see how AD stacks up against them.

One thing I will say, he did himself no favors by sprinkling in the subtle (or not so subtle) slams on Dalton, I'm sure he was just trying to be funny, but it tends to imply bias in a data driven article like this.

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 06:23 PM
again admittedly, I have only looked at the Bengals portion so far.


I'm curious to see what his definition of "accurate" is. In the article he says breadbasket, which would suggest in the numbers, but QB's are taught to hit a guy around the neck area so they can see the ball in as easily as possible with their eyes.

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 06:24 PM
for me, if a guy can get two hands on a ball without jumping, I expect him to catch it.

Oldcat
07-11-2014, 06:38 PM
That's not "my" quote, it's a quote from the article. I think you guys are being a little hard on the author, he is looking at a very specific aspect of the game, how accurate are a QBs completions. All of his data is based on this. In doing so he found the Green and MJ seemed to have a relatively low % of their catches in the "accurate" category. What he deems accurate is of course subjective, but you would expect that he would be somewhat consistent as he didn't only look at Dalton/Bengals WRs. Some people have also brought up the fact that sometime QBs smartly throw it farther away a guy to lead him open, but again, all QBs do this so those would be reflected in the numbers as well. Yet Dalton still appears to be more inaccurate than most other QBs, using this particular measure. I think it is an interesting look at the data. He said he plans to look at the lower half of QBs next week so it will be interesting to see how AD stacks up against them.

One thing I will say, he did himself no favors by sprinkling in the subtle (or not so subtle) slams on Dalton, I'm sure he was just trying to be funny, but it tends to imply bias in a data driven article like this.

I meant this as short for "the quote in coups post" rather than implying you said it yourself.

Oldcat
07-11-2014, 06:42 PM
again admittedly, I have only looked at the Bengals portion so far.


I'm curious to see what his definition of "accurate" is. In the article he says breadbasket, which would suggest in the numbers, but QB's are taught to hit a guy around the neck area so they can see the ball in as easily as possible with their eyes.

Most passes that aren't accurate aren't catchable and are not receptions. These days many "high passes" or "thrown short" passes are by design to keep them away from the CB, or to force a pass interference by the defender if he is playing the man rather than the ball.

Bengals1181
07-11-2014, 06:44 PM
Most passes that aren't accurate aren't catchable and are not receptions. These days many "high passes" or "thrown short" passes are by design to keep them away from the CB, or to force a pass interference by the defender if he is playing the man rather than the ball.

I get what you mean, but I don't know that I'd say "many are by design" or even as many as say 1/3. It certainly happens by design at times, but I think its a low percentage.

Bengals1181
07-15-2014, 10:42 AM
Bengal Quick Takes: Receiving acrobatics

July, 15, 2014
JUL 15
9:00
AM ET

By Coley Harvey (http://search.espn.go.com/coley-harvey/) | ESPN.com




If you've been following along on our Cincinnati Bengals (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/cin/cincinnati-bengals?ex_cid=null) blog all this summer, you've seen a lot of statistics.

You will continue seeing your share of advanced statistics here, and you'll get a chance to read some of the breakdowns that go along with them. Our "Bengals factoid" series will end next week when the veritable bow will be tied on 2013 and other past seasons. Starting July 24, when the Bengals open training camp, the only stats that will matter are those yet on the horizon. A new year is beginning.

As we keep looking back at last season, though, we ought to take a look at this really intriguing item (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/catch-radius-denver-vs-dvoa-vs-dalton) from Football Outsiders' Scott Kacsmar. In this lengthy blog post from last week, Kacsmar breaks down catch radius (i.e., the area around a receiver that he uses to make a catch). He found through hours of game-film watching that the Bengals' top two receivers consistently had wider catch radii than most others. A.J. Green and Marvin Jones (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15072/marvin-jones?ex_cid=null)were among the league's most prolific at catching balls over their heads, diving for others and catching others still that weren't thrown to their chests or heads.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nfl/players/full/13983.png&w=65&h=90&scale=crop&background=0xcccccc&transparent=false
Green
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nfl/players/full/15072.png&w=65&h=90&scale=crop&background=0xcccccc&transparent=false
Jones
It's possible to view Kacsmar's evaluation as a critique of quarterback Andy Dalton (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14012/andy-dalton?ex_cid=null), using it to say he had trouble hitting his receivers in the bread basket every time. It's also possible to view the evaluation in a different light, using it to say Dalton knew what he was doing and was simply putting the ball in the only spot where he felt his receiver could catch it without a defender getting in the way.

As is the case with all statistics, it's important to keep game situations in mind. Perhaps some of the more acrobatic receptions were the result of Dalton finding his receivers the best way he knew how simply because the down, distance and quarter dictated he throw into the spots he did. Then again, the fairly high rate of those slightly wide throws indicates that maybe the situations didn't really matter. Perhaps Dalton's accuracy was simply something the likes of Green and Jones helped mask.

Again, not every throw is designed to hit a receiver in the chest, open or not. But it is interesting to note that Kacsmar's findings show that just 56.9 percent of the passes Jones caught last season were caught around his chest. Of Green's 98 catches last year, 44.9 percent were caught in his chest area, Kacsmar said.

Compare those numbers to the 2011 and 2012 versions of Mike Wallace (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/12601/mike-wallace?ex_cid=null) who, when he was in Pittsburgh with Ben Roethlisberger (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger?ex_cid=null), caught 76.0 and 79.6 percent of his passes in chest, respectively. Maybe Wallace ran routes that got him open more often? Maybe Dalton knows that athleticism and acrobatic play are such a part of Green's and Jones' game that he can put the ball in a spot where they have to stretch for it a little more than other receivers? Or maybe accuracy really was an issue for Dalton last year (he did have a career-high 20 interceptions and he's focused this summer on bettering his mechanics)?

Regardless of your take on Dalton's passing ability, it's worthwhile to check out Kacsmar's extensive research. It certainly shows the value Green and Jones have to the Bengals' passing game. Who knows? Maybe this will help them earn a few extra dollars when negotiations begin on their next deals. Green's fifth-year option was exercised this spring. After it ends in 2015, he could get franchise tagged for 2016 if a long-term deal hasn't been reached by then. Jones is signed through 2015. His single-season cap value maxes out at $700,700 on the final year of the contract. If he plays in 2014 the way he did in 2013, he may force the Bengals into giving him a seven-figure payday next offseason.

Let's take a brief look at a couple other Quick Takes:

More on Jones. My gut believes Jones will have another strong year as the Bengals' No. 2 receiver behind Green. My gut also thinks you ought to prepare for a resurgence fromMohamed Sanu (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14922/mohamed-sanu?ex_cid=null), though. After having a mostly two-man tandem at wideout last season, I'm thinking we'll see more of a three-man group in 2014. That said, how good of a year can Jones have? Would he be worth the fantasy value? I'd defer first to ESPN's fantasy football guru, Matthew Berry, for an answer, but Numberfire.com (http://www.numberfire.com/nfl/news/2612/is-marvin-jones-a-wide-receiver-value-pick-this-year) happened to share a few thoughts on the matter Monday. Let's just say this: The site isn't expecting Giovani Bernard (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15826/giovani-bernard?ex_cid=null) to be the only Bengal to have fantasy value this season.

Letting kids play. The Cincinnati Enquirer (http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2014/07/12/youth-football-concussions/12566781/)'s Paul Dehner Jr. had his own solid read over the weekend with this item concerning the concussion issue and what parents should consider as they start debating letting their kids play this fall. He spoke with a few Bengals players who shared their thoughts on when will be the appropriate time to let their children play -- if they even let them play. I should note that ESPN.com asked a similar question to Hall of Famers at a gathering back in May in Cleveland. The results of that survey will be published later this summer.

http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/9099/bengals-aj-green-andy-dalton-quick-takes-receiving-acrobatics

coup000
07-15-2014, 10:46 AM
Pretty reasonable take on that article from Coley. I think he hits on all the relevant points. Actually, his article sounds a lot like our discussion....

Bengals1181
07-15-2014, 10:58 AM
its an interesting perspective, in a warped kind of way:

Strong Armed Matt Stafford throws up jump balls: no knock on Stafford

Less Strong Armed Andy Dalton throws up jump balls: WR's are bailing Dalton out


It never ceases to amaze me how differently QB's are judged simply because of the perceived strength of their arms. If Dalton had the exact same stats he has now, but Stafford's arm, he'd already have an extension.

Patrick Sullivan
07-15-2014, 11:02 AM
its an interesting perspective, in a warped kind of way:

Strong Armed Matt Stafford throws up jump balls: no knock on Stafford

Less Strong Armed Andy Dalton throws up jump balls: WR's are bailing Dalton out


It never ceases to amaze me how differently QB's are judged simply because of the perceived strength of their arms. If Dalton had the exact same stats he has now, but Stafford's arm, he'd already have an extension.

Here is an interesting exercise: If you and I were the respective GMs of the Lions and Bengals and I offered you a straight up trade - Dalton for Stafford - would you take it?

Bengals1181
07-15-2014, 11:23 AM
Here is an interesting exercise: If you and I were the respective GMs of the Lions and Bengals and I offered you a straight up trade - Dalton for Stafford - would you take it?

I know what you're trying to get at, but its a lot tougher of a question than you'd admit given Stafford's salaries, injury history, and erractic play.

Stafford obviously has the better physical tools (despite the occasional sidearm throws) but better physical tools doesn't equal better player.

Here's how they stack up career wise:

passer rating: Stafford 83.1, Dalton 85.7
QBR: Stafford 53.3, Dalton 51.5
completion %: Stafford 59.5 , Dalton 60.9
TD/Game: Stafford 1.79, Dalton 1.67
INT/Game Stafford 1.97, Dalton 1.02
yards/attempt: Stafford 6.99, Dalton 6.97
yards/game: Stafford: 286.1, Dalton 236.7
Wins/Start: Stafford .393, Dalton .625
Winning Seasons: Stafford 1, Dalton 3
Playoff Appearances: Stafford 1, Dalton 3
2014 Cap Hit: Stafford $15.82M , Dalton $1.659M



It's not so cut and dry as it would seem on the surface.

Brian Williams
07-15-2014, 11:47 AM
its an interesting perspective, in a warped kind of way:

Strong Armed Matt Stafford throws up jump balls: no knock on Stafford

Less Strong Armed Andy Dalton throws up jump balls: WR's are bailing Dalton out

It never ceases to amaze me how differently QB's are judged simply because of the perceived strength of their arms. If Dalton had the exact same stats he has now, but Stafford's arm, he'd already have an extension.

Stafford is absolutely knocked for his sloppy mechanics and jump ball throws.

The Lions signed Stafford early, 2 years before his deal was up. I think it's more a sign of how each organization handles their business than it is strictly a Dalton vs Stafford thing. Some organizations prefer to wait, others prefer to take a more proactive approach earlier in the process.

Also, considering Stafford was a #1 overall prior to the new rookie structure, it benefited the Lions to make a deal with him to free up some cap. Dalton doesn't make nearly the bread, nor hold nearly the cap number that Stafford held when his contract was redone, so there's no real need for urgency on the Bengals' side.

Yes, I think if Matt Stafford were a Bengal, (edit- and had a rookie contract more in line with Dalton's rookie deal) he would have faced a similar contract situation to what Dalton is going through right now.

Bengals1181
07-15-2014, 12:15 PM
Stafford is absolutely knocked for his sloppy mechanics and jump ball throws.

The Lions signed Stafford early, 2 years before his deal was up. I think it's more a sign of how each organization handles their business than it is strictly a Dalton vs Stafford thing. Some organizations prefer to wait, others prefer to take a more proactive approach earlier in the process.

Also, considering Stafford was a #1 overall prior to the new rookie structure, it benefited the Lions to make a deal with him to free up some cap. Dalton doesn't make nearly the bread, nor hold nearly the cap number that Stafford held when his contract was redone, so there's no real need for urgency on the Bengals' side.

Yes, I think if Matt Stafford were a Bengal, he would have faced a similar contract situation to what Dalton is going through right now.


there's no huge urgency I agree, save for a Joe Flacco type situation.


My point was rather (and not intended to go after Stafford, just used him as an example because when you think acrobatic catches, you think Megatron) that physical tools often cloud past success and future potential.

Dalton and Stafford are viewed differently, even though Dalton very arguably has had the better career thus far. But because of his physical tools, most would project Stafford to have more potential going forward.

Patrick Sullivan
07-15-2014, 12:21 PM
I would not make the trade offer in the first place. Let's start there. Can the good people of the football world give Staff's "injury history" a rest? He has not missed a start since the 2010 season. Backup Shaun Hill had 16 pass attempts from 2011-2013. 13 of those came in the barnburner that was the 2012 Titans game. That is the only non-garbage time Hill has seen since 2010. I think Staff's biggest problem was coaching (as in a distinct lack of it). You will see an improved #9 in Honolulu Blue this fall. Book it.

I am on record on this site as a fan of Dalton. The Bengals have gotten 48 consecutive QB starts and three trips to the playoffs since Dalton took the reins. I know he is not the second coming of Peyton Manning, but he is a very, very solid QB. You guys should count your blessings. You could be stuck with Ryan Fitzpatrick. Worse, you could have Matt Cassel or Brandon Weeden.

Just sayin'.

Bengals1181
07-15-2014, 12:26 PM
yea when I was looking through his game log I noticed he had played every game the last 3 seasons.

With regards to his throwing style though, is there any concern up there about issues going forward with his shoulder?

Brian Williams
07-15-2014, 12:31 PM
there's no huge urgency I agree, save for a Joe Flacco type situation.

My point was rather (and not intended to go after Stafford, just used him as an example) that physical tools often cloud past success and future potential.

Dalton and Stafford are viewed differently, even though Dalton very arguably has had the better career thus far. But because of his physical tools, most would project Stafford to have more potential going forward.

So everything being equal, would you take Stafford or Dalton moving forward?

Bengals1181
07-15-2014, 12:35 PM
So everything being equal, would you take Stafford or Dalton moving forward?


Strictly on the field, I think I'd take Dalton. Stafford has the better tools, but I know what I'm getting out of Dalton. Stafford is too much of a wild card.

Factoring in salary, given that Dalton is about to get a raise, I'd be more inclined to roll the dice with Stafford if their salaries were equal.


It's truly a matter of high risk/reward vs low risk/reward

membengal
07-15-2014, 12:57 PM
Here is an interesting exercise: If you and I were the respective GMs of the Lions and Bengals and I offered you a straight up trade - Dalton for Stafford - would you take it?

I would not.

coup000
07-15-2014, 02:33 PM
its an interesting perspective, in a warped kind of way:

Strong Armed Matt Stafford throws up jump balls: no knock on Stafford

Less Strong Armed Andy Dalton throws up jump balls: WR's are bailing Dalton out


It never ceases to amaze me how differently QB's are judged simply because of the perceived strength of their arms. If Dalton had the exact same stats he has now, but Stafford's arm, he'd already have an extension.

In that study, those throws would be judged exactly the same...as "inaccurate". That's where I'm confused by the criticism of that article, he (at least presumably) treated everyone the same. If Calvin Johnson had as low a % of "Chest" catches as AJ and MJ, maybe the article would have been about him. It doesn't judge them differently at all. After reading it a second time CJ isn't included on the list yet so maybe the study will find that Stafford is similar or worse that Dalton in that respect.

Patrick Sullivan
07-15-2014, 03:00 PM
I would not.

Neither would I. Now throw in a draft pick (4th rounder?) and we may have a conversation.