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View Full Version : Bills bench Manuel, to start Orton.



ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 04:53 PM
According to their twitting feed, which I saw on PFT.

https://twitter.com/buffalobills

Makes snese. Only really cost them one game so far. More balls than I expected. Nice.

ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 05:19 PM
It is a step in the right direction. Now to replace Hackett, Crossman, and Schwantz. Oh, and Morrone. Really just any one of them will kick start things toward the playoffs.

I just hope the Jet stick with Geno long enough for that gap to widen.

Bengals1181
09-29-2014, 05:19 PM
stupid move to bench a young QB after 14 starts. Not to mention he's just 6-8, its not like its some horrible record for a young guy. They are 2-4 without him.

ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 05:36 PM
stupid move to bench a young QB after 14 starts. Not to mention he's just 6-8, its not like its some horrible record for a young guy. They are 2-4 without him.

It isn't so much about who was playing without him before. It is that he is lost out there, and costing them games. I think this is a good move to bench a young QB who just doesn't have what it takes.

Swami
09-29-2014, 05:42 PM
Generically, this sounds sensible. But it does not apply to EJ. His flaws are epic. Mark my words - he will never be serviceable in this league. It's not that he needs time to develop, it's that his natural ability is not pro-level. This was a great move.


stupid move to bench a young QB after 14 starts. Not to mention he's just 6-8, its not like its some horrible record for a young guy. They are 2-4 without him.

ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 05:44 PM
Morrone was quoted yesterday, in defending Manuel, as saying that when they have to throw it they're in trouble. I think maybe someone pointed out to him what he meant by that.

These guys know they are coaching for their jobs. At least Morrone appears to. Anythng short of the playoffs and they are out the door whole everybody else is drinking champagne. If they cannot beat a banged up Houston team that scored one offensive touchdown, and the greatest problem is clearly the quarterback, there is little reason to believe he will improve sufficiently in the next two weeks to change their fortunes. Nice kid, not playing well enough to justify keeping him in the lineup. Bonus, the other players won't have to keep justifying his presence on the field either. He just doesnt show the upside they have said he does. Looks great in May. Gets worse as pass rushers approach.

Bengals1181
09-29-2014, 05:58 PM
It isn't so much about who was playing without him before. It is that he is lost out there, and costing them games. I think this is a good move to bench a young QB who just doesn't have what it takes.


its been 14 games. You don't KNOW yet if he has what he takes. It's a stupid move by a desperate head coach worrying about whether he'll have a job next year rather than the longterm good for the franchise.

ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 06:05 PM
It is definitely a move by a desperate head coach who knows he will be fired if they dont make the playoffs. It is not stupid because he knows they wont make the playoffs with this guy playing quarterback. Stupid would be chasing their money with Man uhh else when they have a better alternative than Tuel. Stupid would be setting this team up for the sIow burn of another avoidable ****ty season. Manuel has cnsistentlu been the wirst player on the field. Cannot win thar way. Can easily lose the locker room that way. The receivers are accepting responsibility for not catching th e ball NO MATTER HOW BADLY IT HAS BEEN THROWN. It gets in everybody's head. Manuel is young but he is not improving anywhere near enough. Still indecisive. Still heaves the ball deep left to Woods on a one step drop regardless if covrrage once per quartrr. He is one of the three worst s RT arting qbs in the league (McCown and Smith being the k ther two.)

Amy
09-29-2014, 06:37 PM
Is this really a good move? Ok, Manuel is not great, but it's only year two.

How much can you really blame him for a 6 point loss, in a game where he was hit 19 times? How many times would Orton have been hit?

It seems to me that they lost based on one play by one of the superstars of the leauge (the Watt pick). Do you win that game with Orton? I'm not sure you do.

Oldcat
09-29-2014, 07:32 PM
Is this really a good move? Ok, Manuel is not great, but it's only year two.

How much can you really blame him for a 6 point loss, in a game where he was hit 19 times? How many times would Orton have been hit?

It seems to me that they lost based on one play by one of the superstars of the leauge (the Watt pick). Do you win that game with Orton? I'm not sure you do.

In one of Orton's first NFL games, the Bengals picked him off 5 times.

ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 08:44 PM
With Orton at QB, I think Buffalo definitely wins. Leaving aside the lower likelihood Watt makes that play against him, Orton doesn't waste plays throwing wildly inaccurate crossing routes, fly patterns down the left sideline, and screen passes that leave his receivers so far off balance that they lose two seconds of open space recovering themselves. He also isnt asked to run read option stuff, which Houston mever fell for once.

He is accurate, makes good decisions, and is not at all likely to court a safety video intentional grounding in the end zone two weeks in a row. Buffalo punted 9 times against an incomplete defense. It is true they should have run more, but it is also true that third down was a waste of time unless Fred Jackson was getting the ball. It's the head coach, the offensive coordinator, and the quarterback. All need to be changed, but the only one who will be this year is the quarterback. He is definitely the primary uniformed reason for the loss. The man thro we slants in su ch a way that his receivers either can't catch them because they are too low or dont want to try because they are too jigh. He throws deep balls that miss by ten to fifteen yards. He rarely thriws iut routes likely because they usually go right to a Safety. He isnt good and isnt better today than he was a month ago. He has plateaued if not hit his ceiling. It is the right move. catch it because it is too low or don't want to because I

ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 08:46 PM
When you say Manuel deserves a break, do you recall that he has never been responsible for a comeback win? He has fed the ball to Spiller and Jackson and THEY have done so, but he hasn't. Remember, he might not be as good as Geno Smith or a McCown.

Bengals1181
09-29-2014, 08:58 PM
Scott, is than an area of the Bills team you don't hate? You always have it in for the coaches, well they are the one that's supposed to be developing a young QB.


And at this point he's not going to develop from the bench.

Amy
09-29-2014, 09:07 PM
Orton strikes me as a coaching ploy. A way to tell the new ownership group "You have to give us more time! We had to make a QB switch."

Over his career, Orton is average. He has a 35-34 record, with a 58.4 percent compeltion percentage, and a 79.7 lifetime rating. He has thrown 24 more TDs than Ints, so he's not turnover prone, but he has averaged being sacked twice per game for his career.

EJ was hit *19* times by the Texans. That is an insane amount, and that also points to issues with the OL, the RBs, and/or the blocking scheme. Orton might be a better QB (and he only is if you are willing to say it is impossible for EJ to ever be average, since Orton is average), but he's less mobile.

As a Pats fan, I'd much rather face Orton than Manuel. Manuel played well against us, last year, with his legs especially. Orton's not a run threat.

I hope it works out for you guys, but I'm not confident that it will.

ScottDCP
09-29-2014, 10:15 PM
Scott, is than an area of the Bills team you don't hate? You always have it in for the coaches, well they are the one that's supposed to be developing a young QB.


And at this point he's not going to develop from the bench.

The team can make a deep playoff run with a comoetent quarterback. Missing the playoffs in the hope one guy might get better isnt an interesting alternative.

And Bengals, given my assertion that this is a playoff team with different bcuz, coordinators, and qb, I would hope it's pretty clear that I like a lot of the team. It happens to be ruin by *******s.

iwatt
09-29-2014, 11:29 PM
I wanted to root for EJ Manuel, but the kid doesnt have it. With Geno you at least have the great deep throws ( check his stats, its ridiculous how good he is at that). He wasnt particularly good as a runner in college. His passes arent nearly good enough to catch.

He was a reach last year. The coaches clearly dont trust him, since they paid through the teeth to back him up by Orton, who is serviceable.

Bengals1181
09-29-2014, 11:39 PM
The team can make a deep playoff run with a comoetent quarterback. Missing the playoffs in the hope one guy might get better isnt an interesting alternative.

And Bengals, given my assertion that this is a playoff team with different bcuz, coordinators, and qb, I would hope it's pretty clear that I like a lot of the team. It happens to be ruin by *******s.


so rather than bank on a 24yr old QB who can only get better, you'd rather bank on a 31yr old QB on his 5th team suddenly getting better in his 10th year?


Good luck with that.

Swami
09-30-2014, 09:51 AM
I find this debate hilarious. Guys who follow football all understand that you have to give a young QB time, they often start slow, they can go 1-15 and turn into all-time greats. Looking at low number of starts, win record, age and those factors, one would have to think this is way too short a time to give to EJ to prove himself.

But the guys who watch every throw of every game that EJ plays have a completely different opinion. He's BRUTAL. His inaccuracy is off-the-charts bad. It's unbelievable. His decision making doesn't even register. Perhaps that can improve over time, but it's WAAAAY worse than you think of for a rookie in a tough spot.

This guy is D-U-N done. I seriously doubt, barring injury, he ever starts an NFL game again.

iwatt
09-30-2014, 11:24 AM
I find this debate hilarious. Guys who follow football all understand that you have to give a young QB time, they often start slow, they can go 1-15 and turn into all-time greats. Looking at low number of starts, win record, age and those factors, one would have to think this is way too short a time to give to EJ to prove himself.

But the guys who watch every throw of every game that EJ plays have a completely different opinion. He's BRUTAL. His inaccuracy is off-the-charts bad. It's unbelievable. His decision making doesn't even register. Perhaps that can improve over time, but it's WAAAAY worse than you think of for a rookie in a tough spot.

This guy is D-U-N done. I seriously doubt, barring injury, he ever starts an NFL game again.

He has shown no ability at a single thing. Blaine Gabbert couldn't throw under pressure o even the thought of pressure, but he had at least some throws in him. Geno is erratic, but you can see he can make some beautiful throws and plays. But Manuel throws at legs, behinds, the ground and JJ Watt more than at his WRs. And he's no particularly effective checking down either.

ScottDCP
09-30-2014, 08:42 PM
so rather than bank on a 24yr old QB who can only get better, you'd rather bank on a 31yr old QB on his 5th team suddenly getting better in his 10th year?


Good luck with that.

Thanks, I am good with it. You made two assumptions that miss my take on the situation. First, that he can only get better. Not obvious when you look at the tape. Second, even if he does improve, will he ever be as good as the 31-year old? I am comfy with NEVER. I am also on record as saying at his best he might be as good as Fitz without the physical toughness. Still stand by that. I do not believe he will ever be as good as Orton is today or is likely to be tomorrow. Given that starting point, it would be stupid of me to hang onto his age, size, and draft location as legitimate reasons to keep inviting defeat.

The team has mortgaged the future to win today. If they have to rebuild around Manuel in the hopes he will improve markedly in two years they will find themselves out of good players around him. The Williams will be too old, the RBs will be too old, the WRs will be in intensive care from all the kidney and liver damage his slants, hooks, and Crosse will provide them. The team is among the most talented in the Conference. They need a shepherd more than a savior.

After this move I think Buffalo will become consistently competitive. I think they could flirt with dominance with a different set of coaches, but right now they have a roster they will have trouble screwing up in terminal fashion every week. They are still going to miss out on using all of their personnel in advantageous ways, and they are still going to have clock and challenge management problems, but the consistent competence I expect to see at QB is no longer a threat to back them up on every possession.