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View Full Version : What exactly is the problem Carson Palmer is facing?



TrojanScott
07-07-2010, 09:33 PM
In 2005 he was considered to be on the path to greatness after throwing for 3836 yrds, 32 tds, 12 ints, and 101.1 passer rating. The knee injury happens in January 2006. In 2006 his numbers are comparable. 2007 there is a decline in his production. In 2008 he has elbow ligament problems. In 2009 the Bengals do great during the regular season, but I believe they were carried by the defense and running game.

I am a huge CP fan, but can he regain is 2005 form? Are there outside factors such as an aging receiving core, bad pass protection? Is damage to elbow ligaments like damage to knee ligaments (really a 2 year recovery)? Or is there irreparable mental harm from the physical adversity he has endured?

GiantsFaninToronto
07-07-2010, 09:41 PM
It might just be that his body is betraying him. But he has a good offense around him, and the defense has come around, so it's not like the Bengals should be totally dependent on him alone. They aren't that far off; then again, it seems like everyone felt they were ready to take the next step and they never could.

Jdemuesy
07-07-2010, 10:12 PM
This is really the make or break year for him. At the end of 2008, everyone thought he was headed for surgery on the elbow. He decided it wasn't needed, and all of last year, every throw he made that wasn't good was blamed on his elbow. The only thing that deflected some of the attention away from the lingering elbow problem was the perceived notion that Palmer didn't have enough weapons. The WR corps has been upgraded with the addition of Antonio Bryant and the maturation of Andre Caldwell, not to mention that Bernard Scott and Brian Leonard demonstrated in 2009 that they can be effective weapons out of the backfield. Oh, and in the draft, they added the best tight end, Jermaine Gresham.

Basically, this year is it for Carson: you either prove that your elbow is healthy, or it may no longer be a given that he is the man in Cincinnati.

Andy Freeland
07-07-2010, 10:54 PM
Carson's been on a steady decline since his great '05 season, since his knee injury. If you discount '08 when he only played 4 games, his rating, TDs and yards/att have all dropped every year. It's easy to blame his receivers, in particular the loss of Chris Henry who was a devastating deep threat in his prime. But anyone who watched the Bengals the last few years know that his accuracy is way off. He's just not the thrower he was in '05. My guess would be that in '06, after the injury, he didn't trust the knee and developed mechanical flaws that haven't been corrected. Hopefully last year's performance has convinced him to go back and look at tape of himself before the injury.

Considering the other QBs on the roster, he would have to be really, really bad to lose his job this year. Right or wrong, the Bengals are the team of 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances. Despite his recent play, they haven't even started looking for a new QB.

DannyMilk
07-07-2010, 11:15 PM
Carson seems like such a good guy off the field. On the field, he really isn't a terrible player, but the Bengals finished 26th in Passing YPG last year. Carson's individual stats, albeit aren't terrible, but were middle of the pack. He only had 1 game all year where his Passer Rating was above 100 (when they destroyed my Bears), only had 21 TD, 5 of which came in the aforementioned Bear slaughter. If you don't count that Bear game, and the last game of the year that Palmer only made one pass in, He only averaged 6.2 yards per pass play.

I think maybe his confidence was rattled, whether it was due to the pressure in his face, or whether it was from the injury. His receivers aren't great, but he does have Chad. Schaub has Johnson in Houston without a lot of help and put up far better numbers. They both distributed the ball all over, neither have great receivers besides their star, and Schaub was sacked 25 times while being picked off 15 times, where as Palmer was sacked 26 times while being picked off 13 times. But (and a lot of credit goes to Andre) Schaub averaged almost 2 yards more pass play than Palmer.

Maybe Palmer is done...and not done in the terrible quarterback forever way, but more like a Jake Delhomme sort of way.

Colts01
07-08-2010, 03:14 PM
I think hes a good Qb but he killed me in fantasy last year

mjchefer
07-08-2010, 03:16 PM
IM with Andy on this one, he's been on a decline since the 05' injury. That was such a psychological hit for him... They were one of the best teams in the NFL, probably poised to make a run to the Superbowl, and he gets injured on such a silly play at the start of the first game.

StarvinMarvin
07-08-2010, 05:48 PM
I don' want to make excuses for CP's play but as a fan, I'm almost compelled to. I've held as true a belief that the knee injury has had a devestating effect on not so much his mechanics as his psyche. Were I in his shoes it'd be 2nd nature to get rid of the ball a split second early and get out of the way of rushers. I think this shows up most often in the high, sailing throws we've all seen over the last few years. And worse, once it started, it's become a part of his mechanics. The elbow thing may or may not have played into this but by now, I think we'd have heard something. In short, I think he's gun-shy and it won;t stop until his confidence in his O-line's pass blocking ability is proven.

I don't remember who his QB coach at USC was (Tedford maybe?) but as a partial solution, were I Palmer, I'd try to get in some work with him if possible because coming out as a rookie, I don;t think anyone would argue that he had the best NFL-ready ability in quite some time.

Wordsworth
07-08-2010, 06:08 PM
My guess would be that in '06, after the injury, he didn't trust the knee and developed mechanical flaws that haven't been corrected. Hopefully last year's performance has convinced him to go back and look at tape of himself before the injury.

This has been my assumption as well. After a devastating knee injury like he faced, it would be very easy to develop bad habits during rehabilitation that could prevent a player from performing the way he did before the injury. He is far enough removed from it now that he should have the strength back in his knee, but small tics in his movement could hamper the way he delivers the ball downfield. I don't have access to tape of him or I would investigate myself. I have a feeling Andy is on the money about this one.

TrojanScott
07-08-2010, 06:35 PM
I don' want to make excuses for CP's play but as a fan, I'm almost compelled to. I've held as true a belief that the knee injury has had a devestating effect on not so much his mechanics as his psyche. Were I in his shoes it'd be 2nd nature to get rid of the ball a split second early and get out of the way of rushers. I think this shows up most often in the high, sailing throws we've all seen over the last few years. And worse, once it started, it's become a part of his mechanics. The elbow thing may or may not have played into this but by now, I think we'd have heard something. In short, I think he's gun-shy and it won;t stop until his confidence in his O-line's pass blocking ability is proven.

I don't remember who his QB coach at USC was (Tedford maybe?) but as a partial solution, were I Palmer, I'd try to get in some work with him if possible because coming out as a rookie, I don;t think anyone would argue that he had the best NFL-ready ability in quite some time.

While at SC under Paul Hackett his qb caoch was Ken O'Brien and then under Pete Carroll it was Sarkisian. The fear of stepping into his throws and not planting his foot would seem to prevent him from getting ontop of the ball and let is sail as others have pointed out.

del23
07-09-2010, 01:21 AM
I don' want to make excuses for CP's play but as a fan, I'm almost compelled to. I've held as true a belief that the knee injury has had a devestating effect on not so much his mechanics as his psyche. Were I in his shoes it'd be 2nd nature to get rid of the ball a split second early and get out of the way of rushers. I think this shows up most often in the high, sailing throws we've all seen over the last few years. And worse, once it started, it's become a part of his mechanics. The elbow thing may or may not have played into this but by now, I think we'd have heard something. In short, I think he's gun-shy and it won;t stop until his confidence in his O-line's pass blocking ability is proven.

I don't remember who his QB coach at USC was (Tedford maybe?) but as a partial solution, were I Palmer, I'd try to get in some work with him if possible because coming out as a rookie, I don;t think anyone would argue that he had the best NFL-ready ability in quite some time.

I think you are spot on with your post, unfortunately it does seem to be a psychological problem resulting from that knee injury in 2006. Everyone who practices with Palmer raves about his delivery, especially his accuracy and the zip he can get on the ball. Unfortunately at the moment that is not being translated to the field, and I do think the problem is that he is trying to get rid of the ball a split second early.

This seems to have had a major effect on him going through his progressions properly, and I did notice last year that he seemed to have locked in a reciever, particularly Chad or Chris, from the moment the ball was snapped. A lot of the time if they were covered he seemed to immediately go for the check down to the running back or throw it to the reciever regardless. If you go back to 2005 the ball seemed to be spread around the field a lot more, with the likes of Reggie Kelly, Tab Perry, Kelly Washington coming up with vital touchdowns, but it is a lot easier to go through all your progressions when you 'feel' you have enough time in the pocket.

I am a big fan of Palmer, particularly for the way he handles himself off the field, and I really think (hope!) he can get back to that level. For this to happen though, I think it is vital for Kyle Cook to continue the progress he made last year, and hopefully become someone that Carson can trust to call the correct pass protections, as he had with Rich Braham. I think Rich's injury in '06 against Cleveland can not be forgotten when talking about Carson's problems in the pocket as he has not had a centre he could trust since.

Wordsworth
07-09-2010, 01:27 AM
... I think it is vital for Kyle Cook to continue the progress he made last year, and hopefully become someone that Carson can trust to call the correct pass protections, as he had with Rich Braham. I think Rich's injury in '06 against Cleveland can not be forgotten when talking about Carson's problems in the pocket as he has not had a centre he could trust since.

Excellent point! He had a lot of trust in Braham and that is something which can have a lasting psychological effect on a QB when he doesn't feel confident in his protectors to watch his back effectively.