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Andy Freeland
05-28-2010, 06:49 PM
There's an old adage that you win championships by running the ball and playing defense. Well, the Jets were #1 in run offense and #1 in defense last year. But is the adage out-dated? 3 of the top 4 running teams last year missed the playoffs.

Chilly
07-02-2010, 03:23 PM
Let's not abandon the defensive half of the adage quite yet, even with the Saints winning the Super Bowl. [Remember, the biggest play of that game was the interception of Manning that cemented the Big Easy's First Super Bowl] I still maintain that having a good defense is a must for a year-after-year title contender.

The running half of the adage is the one up for debate. The young-Brady Patriots did not run the ball convincingly [not poorly, either], but they incorporated a short passing game that effectively served the same purpose. The NFL's evolution of passing now allows offenses to maintain consistency without handing off the rock as many times. That being said, it is always easier to give the ball to a top-tier back and pound it down your opponent's throat. But can you argue with the statement that the Patriots' best 'running back' last season was Wes Welker, as far as his ability to consistently provide yardage and shorten third down situations?

How about this adage? You win championships with consistent, reliable offenses and playing good defense. That work, or too generic?

Andy Freeland
07-02-2010, 03:31 PM
I agree with you on the running part. Last year aside, the best teams usually have statistically good run offenses. But that's confusing cause and effect. Good teams are ahead in the 2nd half and run the ball more than bad teams. You rarely see a championship by a team that is one dimensional. The '00 Ravens come to mind. But for the most part you have to be solid on both sides of the ball to win in February.

Chilly
07-02-2010, 03:39 PM
On top of that, anyone will tell you that turnovers win and lose games in January/February. The inability to run the ball [or effectively use a short passing game] results in longer passes and more risks. And more turnovers. Ask Peyton...

Scotty
07-02-2010, 04:57 PM
With LDT on board, I wonder how the Jets run offense will work this year. Obviously they have nowhere to go but down from #1, but how far down? I think the last 2 years in San Diego showed that LDT simply cannot be the feature back, so what exactly is his role? He is too small to be a 3rd down "pound it in" back, and too slow to be a Reggie Bush type trick player....what will Ryan do with him?

Andy Freeland
07-02-2010, 05:06 PM
Thomas Jones showed last year that it's the Jets line that's getting all the rushing yards, assuming they are as strong this year without Faneca. I don't know that Tomlinson has lost his speed as much as he's lost the lateral movement. In his prime, he could make that jump cut and come down at full speed, we haven't seen that in a couple of years. I think he'll do fine as the #2 back, getting lots of rest. And remember, he did catch over 100 passes one year.

Chilly
07-02-2010, 05:18 PM
So you look at LDT as an upgrade over Thomas Jones? I think it is a downgrade, and a pretty big one at that. We'll see I guess. Not as much of a downgrade as Hardesty would have been, though...

CraigTumminello
07-02-2010, 05:21 PM
It's not outdated it just doesn't work with a rookie quarterback. Look at the Giants in 2007 they were all running and defense against a high powered Patriots offense. The Steelers in 2008 were also a great defensive team. Last year was an exception with the Colts and Saints with two fantastic offenses and solid defenses. But even back in 2006 the Bears made it with a great defense. It is far from outdated.

By the way the Jets got worse on offense in the off-season. Getting rid of Thomas Jones and Leon Washington in favor of LDT is a disaster waiting to happen. Mark Sanchez still isn't ready to make the leap and is a liability.

Andy Freeland
07-02-2010, 05:31 PM
Thomas Jones ran for a ton of yards last year, but mostly he took what the o-line gave him. He didn't break a lot of tackles and didn't outrun anyone. Shonn Greene should be an upgrade over Jones, as was evident in the playoffs last year. Tomlinson will be fine as a 3rd down/change of pace back, but not an upgrade over a healthy Leon Washington, assuming Leon is healthy. and Hardesty, of course, will have more rushing yards than Ben Tate this year, everyone knows that.

Jetsfan
07-04-2010, 01:13 PM
So many people across the country keep making the same mistake concerning Thomas Jones and Tomlinson. Jones was replaced by Shonn Green not Tomlinson. Green is our #1 back. Tomlinson will be a 3rd down back along with the rookie McKnight.

Chilly
07-04-2010, 06:19 PM
So many people across the country keep making the same mistake concerning Thomas Jones and Tomlinson. Jones was replaced by Shonn Green not Tomlinson. Green is our #1 back. Tomlinson will be a 3rd down back along with the rookie McKnight.

Even so, the replacements look like this:
RB Depth Chart:
1. Thomas Jones --> Shonn Green
2. Leon Washington --> LT
3. Shonn Green --> Joe McKnight

With a heavier workload, I don't see Green doing anything more than replicating what Jones did--not an upgrade. LT is a definite downgrade from Washington in terms of explosiveness and versatility. McKnight is a complete unknown, but I'm sure all thirty two teams would rather have Green than McKnight.

By my grading: Split [at best]-Downgrade-Downgrade.

Wordsworth
07-04-2010, 08:00 PM
I don't know how a team moves out two of it's top rushers and stays #1 in rushing for a second year. I think most people can agree that LT is not an upgrade over Leon Washington, but a lateral step or downgrade in the 3DRB role. With fresh legs he can still be competitive because he showed last year that he can score in short yardage even without the burst he once had. Shonn Greene can obviously get his job done but we'll see if he can stretch it out over 16 games. I don't think they return as the top rushing team again in 2010 though.

Chilly
07-05-2010, 12:36 AM
I think they return as the top rushing team, or at least a top three, but I think it will take more carries. Expect YPC and +10yd rushes to drop dramatically.

Unless the Sanchise lives up to his trademark name, of course. Then all bets are off, and you may be looking at the Super Bowl favorites.

DannyMilk
07-05-2010, 03:51 AM
I think Rex Ryan likes hard nosed football, and knows he needs to run the ball, and he will, and he will run it well no matter who's back there.

Secondly (and I know it wasn't the topic, but still) I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Colts (Unless I missed it haha)...they were DEAD LAST by a very wide margin (8 yards per game) in only averaging 80 yards rushing last year, and their defense was 24th against the run, 14th against the pass, and were 18th in yards per game. Now obviously, the simple answer is Peyton Manning. But I wonder how many teams of the past defense was this mediocre, rushing game so poor, yet their team dominated during the regular season and conference playoffs.

Jetsfan
07-06-2010, 01:54 PM
Shonn better than Jones. Jones ran out of steam last season. Jones is done as a legit #1 starter. Leon Washington is an unknown now, so you can't compare him until you see how he has recovered.

GBPKS
07-06-2010, 01:59 PM
I think it has been proven that to win a Super Bowl, you need an elite quarterback and a solid defense. You can't be completely one dimensional but it has become a passing league and ultimately you'll find yourself in a situation where you're behind late and you need the quarterback to win the game for you.

Running the ball is a symptom of being a winning team, not a cause of it. Obviously, you have to be able to run the ball in certain situations but the quarterback makes the offense go.

That being said, you need your defense to step up too - but again it's about defending the pass, getting to the quarterback, and getting turnovers.

DannyMilk
07-06-2010, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=GBPKS;1500]I think it has been proven that to win a Super Bowl, you need an elite quarterback and a solid defense. You can't be completely one dimensional but it has become a passing league and ultimately you'll find yourself in a situation where you're behind late and you need the quarterback to win the game for you.QUOTE]

Trent Dilfer is crying, for it's the first time he's ever been called an elite QB haha...I kid, I kid

GBPKS
07-06-2010, 02:21 PM
I think the league has evolved a lot since the 2000 Ravens or even the 2002 Bucs - the rules continue to be altered to protect the quarterback and provide advantages to the receiver.

I'm not sure we'll see a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson win a Super Bowl again unless surrounded by an all-time great running back, an all-time great defense, and a terrific coach.

DannyMilk
07-06-2010, 02:24 PM
Rex Grossman came pretty close, but I agree, with an unproven, average or below average quarterback, they need one of those aspects to be DOMINANT to make it that far into the Playoffs

GBPKS
07-06-2010, 02:37 PM
Rex got to the Super Bowl because of a team playing good defense and inhuman special teams, but at the end of the day when it came down to Peyton Manning vs. Rex Grossman it was a mismatch the Colts won reasonably easily.

AudioTech
07-08-2010, 02:53 AM
I think the league has evolved a lot since the 2000 Ravens or even the 2002 Bucs - the rules continue to be altered to protect the quarterback and provide advantages to the receiver.

I'm not sure we'll see a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson win a Super Bowl again unless surrounded by an all-time great running back, an all-time great defense, and a terrific coach.

it's a little known fact that brad johnson had a stellar year in 2002. 22 TD's. 6 INT's. 3000 yds. and toss in a trip to the pro bowl.

Wordsworth
07-08-2010, 01:25 PM
it's a little known fact that brad johnson had a stellar year in 2002. 22 TD's. 6 INT's. 3000 yds. and toss in a trip to the pro bowl.

Absolutely. That's great bar room trivia.

Chilly
07-09-2010, 06:14 PM
And Big Ben was absolutely horrific in his first Super Bowl win, and the Steelers still won despite his performance. Throw in Grossman's trip to the Super Bowl, and I think you can still argue that a great QB is not an absolute necessity [Eli won one, too].

bluestree
07-09-2010, 06:34 PM
The key to winning the Super Bowl is getting there. Look at the Giants in '07, they were lights out on defense, had a good run game, and would have lost to an injured Tom Brady except for one incredibly lucky throw and catch. In order to win the Super Bowl you don't need a great QB, or run game, or defense. You have to be good enough, and healthy enough, and lucky enough to get to the game, and then anything can happen. One toe out and the Cards win, history changes. Porter drops the ball and Colts score, history changes, our whole view of Peyton Manning changes. Adam Vinetieri misses a couple of kicks and Belichek is bagging groceries (well, ok, selling cars). It's the NFL, worst to first, it's not that far.

metsmaniac31
07-11-2010, 05:09 AM
The Jets defense is going be just as good as was last year, if not better with another year operating under Rex's system. Kris Jenkins is already down 20 pounds coming off of the knee injury which should help him get back to being the force that he was at the beginning of last season, and once they give Revis the money he deserves, they'll be back on track to wrecking opposing QB's all season long. The addition of Cromartie on the other side of Revis makes our secondary even stronger because if Rex is able to bring out Cro's 2007 form, opposing offenses will have nowhere to throw the ball. Our front 7 will be then free to do what they do best, get after the QB, make plays and create turnovers.

As for the other side of the ball, TJ lost a step at the end of last year and his YPC was terrible considering the quality of our O-Line that he ran behind so Greene's young legs will be a major upgrade. Washington is coming off of a broken leg so you really don't know what to expect when he returns, so while LT has been undoubtedly on the decline, he now gets to run behind one of the best O-Lines in the league as a 3DRB, definitely a better situation for him to succeed than San Diego. While I am concerned about the loss of Faneca, even though statistically he was our worst pass blocker last year, his leadership on the line helped Brick and Mangold flourish and his veteran presence in the locker room will be missed. Through the air, Sanchez will have another year under his belt and now he has even more toys to play with down field with the addition of Santonio Holmes. With Holmes, Edwards, Cotchery, and Keller our receiving corps are extremely solid and with Sanchez growing in confidence and knowledge, opposing defenses wont be able to stack 8 or 9 guys in the box to shut down the run anymore.

Its a misnomer that the J-E-T-S are a one-dimensional team in the mold of the top defensive teams of the past decade who have not had the most prolific offenses. While some pundits are starting the hype machine on the 2010 Jets already, as a lifelong fan I refuse to go Joe Namath and start predicting anything because of all the times my teams love to choke (see Favre, Brett (2008); Brien, Doug (2005); I'm also a Mets fan... say no more) but this team has the potential to be compete at the top this year and still be in the hunt for Lombardi when January rolls around again.

BayouBoys
07-12-2010, 03:31 AM
Look I still agree with the statement but I think it comes down to BALL CONTROL. As someone said before short passes now can be just as effective as a short run if you have an offense that can sustain it. The saints could easily throw the ball and gain 3 yards on every play. Same with the colts. This is comparable to a great running game. What it comes down to is slowly ticking those seconds off the clock and scoring. Take control of the game. In the end you will always need a good D. I mean, I think John Madden would say something along the lines that "You can't win if the other team scores more points than you!" ha! It is all about being efficient and knowing what you want to do with the ball and doing it.

PLUS! Don't sleep on Joe Mcknight. The guy is a beast. He was #1 recruit in college during his time. The guy is an athlete and can run and catch balls out of the back like LDT. That Line for the Jets will be just fine opening those holes. I think last year Jerome Bettis could have made a comeback with that LINE.

metsmaniac31
07-12-2010, 05:13 AM
agreed completely, the ability of an elite QB to close out games through the short passing game can be just as useful as a bruising running game. The thing is there are very few of those elite QB's who can actually pull that off (Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers?) and Sanchez is nowhere close to that echelon yet. Definitely, nobody should be sleeping on Mcknight at all. Coming into SC as the #1 HS recruit, he was burdened by the expectations that he would become the next Reggie Bush along with the lingering controversy surrounding the questionable legality of his recruitment that lasted for the entirety of his College tenure. Give him a few years to soak up the knowledge from LT, one of the best running backs of the past decade, without any pressure on him to produce immediately or carry any burden because of the power of our O-Line, he might just turn into that back that everybody thought he was going to be

chriscavuto
07-15-2010, 09:36 AM
The Jets will have the best defense in the league and a solid running attack, but to make it in the NFL these days you need to be able to pass. The Jets will go as far as Mark Sanchez brings us. I think he is going to be a great QB, the Jets have put alot of solid players around him at WR and OL. If he plays the same way he did in the playoffs we will be fine this year. Unfortunately passing wins championships, just look at the two teams in the Super Bowl the past 2 years.

GBPKS
07-15-2010, 09:41 AM
Look, if you have a truly dominating defense, you can do anything. As my old wrestling coach used to say (and as was proven by the Packers/Cardinals playoff game), "If you score a lot of points you may win, but if your opponent doesn't score, you can't lose."

I just don't think the Jets have a truly dominating defense. Miami hung 30 on them twice last year, and New England and Indianapolis eclipsed 30 points on them as well.

One of my best friends is a Jet fan, and we have a bet already lined up for the Packer/Jet game on Halloween - will the Packers score 20 points on the vaunted Jet defense? I think it's a lock - the Packers only scored less than 20 points once last season.

jship2121
07-15-2010, 09:53 AM
How do they not have a dominating defense? They lead the league in overall defense last year, and all they've done is add cromartie, jenkins (from injury) and taylor (old but will provide leadership and energy in a limited pash rushing role). Rodgers is a great QB but him and every other QB in the league should be scared to play the jets this year.

GBPKS
07-15-2010, 10:08 AM
How do they not have a dominating defense? They lead the league in overall defense last year, and all they've done is add cromartie, jenkins (from injury) and taylor (old but will provide leadership and energy in a limited pash rushing role). Rodgers is a great QB but him and every other QB in the league should be scared to play the jets this year.

There are very few dominating defenses in NFL history. The 2009-10 Jets were not the 1985 Bears, the 1986 Giants, or the 2000 Ravens. Statistically, someone has to lead the NFL in defense every year. That doesn't make them a dominating defense.

Don't get me wrong - the Jets were the best defense in the NFL last year and a very good defense, but they were not a game-changing DOMINATING defense. In fact, in a lot of games, they were unable to get a key late stop to win the game - they gave up late scores to lose close games against Miami, against Jacksonville, against Atlanta, I think even against Buffalo. The only reason they were able to get past San Diego in the playoffs is because Nate Kaeding self-destructed. Dominating defenses make those stops - dominating defenses win those games, and the Jets defense was not a dominating defense.

They've added more big name players in the offseason - but Cromartie's reputation was built in his rookie year and he hasn't been as good since - Jason Taylor is on his last legs, and Kris Jenkins hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Plus, it remains to be seen if Revis can play at the unconsciously good level he was at last year - if he reverts to the mean even a little bit, it will have a big impact.

Again, I'm not saying that the Jets defense isn't good - but it's not the special defense that can carry a team to a championship without getting help from the offense. Mark Sanchez is going to have to improve by leaps and bounds this year for the Jets to live up to their hype.

jship2121
07-15-2010, 10:22 AM
There are very few dominating defenses in NFL history. The 2009-10 Jets were not the 1985 Bears, the 1986 Giants, or the 2000 Ravens. Statistically, someone has to lead the NFL in defense every year. That doesn't make them a dominating defense.

Don't get me wrong - the Jets were the best defense in the NFL last year and a very good defense, but they were not a game-changing DOMINATING defense. In fact, in a lot of games, they were unable to get a key late stop to win the game - they gave up late scores to lose close games against Miami, against Jacksonville, against Atlanta, I think even against Buffalo. The only reason they were able to get past San Diego in the playoffs is because Nate Kaeding self-destructed. Dominating defenses make those stops - dominating defenses win those games, and the Jets defense was not a dominating defense.

They've added more big name players in the offseason - but Cromartie's reputation was built in his rookie year and he hasn't been as good since - Jason Taylor is on his last legs, and Kris Jenkins hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Plus, it remains to be seen if Revis can play at the unconsciously good level he was at last year - if he reverts to the mean even a little bit, it will have a big impact.

Again, I'm not saying that the Jets defense isn't good - but it's not the special defense that can carry a team to a championship without getting help from the offense. Mark Sanchez is going to have to improve by leaps and bounds this year for the Jets to live up to their hype.

I am not trying to compare the Jets to any of those teams, but you named the 3 best defensive teams in the last 40 years. The jets defense will create turnovers and be able to stop both the run and pass effectively. I just don't see how they don't get even better than last year with the additions they made plus a second year under the Rex Ryan system.

Agreed that Sanchez needs to improve in order to be a serious contender late in January.

chriscavuto
07-15-2010, 10:31 AM
GBPKS - The Jets did not have another corner to compliment Revis and Kerry Rhodes couldn't cover anyone. Adding Cromartie will allow them to play man on anyone. He didn't have great seasons the past 2 but that is because SD played a zone most of the time. If Revis and Cromartie can cover a receiver for 5-6 seconds, which they both have proved in the past they can, the Jets will have the best defense in the league again. To put them in the same category as those 3 other teams you mentioned is crazy, they are an unproven defense but have the potential to be great. The packers suck...

GBPKS
07-15-2010, 11:07 AM
GBPKS - The Jets did not have another corner to compliment Revis and Kerry Rhodes couldn't cover anyone. Adding Cromartie will allow them to play man on anyone. He didn't have great seasons the past 2 but that is because SD played a zone most of the time. If Revis and Cromartie can cover a receiver for 5-6 seconds, which they both have proved in the past they can, the Jets will have the best defense in the league again. To put them in the same category as those 3 other teams you mentioned is crazy, they are an unproven defense but have the potential to be great. The packers suck...

Again, we seem tobe having some miscommunication. The Jets are a good defense, maybe even a very good defense. But you still haven't answered how this so-called great defense blew fourth quarter leads against the likes of Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville, and Atlanta last year. Hey, it's great that the Jets held Atlanta to 10 points - but it doesn't help if you only score 7.

And as great as Revis is - the Dolphins proved you can run the ball right down the Jets' throats and they had no answer for it. Maybe Kris Jenkins coming back healthy will help that piece of the defense, but you can't be a truly great defense unless you can stuff the run.

My argument is not that the Jets are not a good defense. They are a good defense - and maybe they will be better in 2010 than they were in 2009. That's not my argument, though. My argument is that the Jets are not a good ENOUGH defense to be a Super Bowl contender unless Mark Sanchez plays well at quarterback. Rex Ryan's swagger has put a bullseye on the Jets and they have a lot of hype coming into the season and they are going to be on Hard Knocks and they made a great run to the AFC Championship Game and that's all wonderful - but people forget that this team was 7-7 and got a gift from Bill Polian and Jim Caldwell to make it to the playoffs and then got another gift from Nate Kaeding's foot to make it to the AFC Championship Game.

They don't give out rings for being the #1 defense. They give out rings for winning the Super Bowl. That's what the hyped goal for the Jets is this year. But I don't think they have enough on offense to get it done.

Defense wins championships? Not lately in the NFL. Look at the last few Super Bowl matchups - Brees versus Peyton Manning, Roethlisberger versus Warner, Brady versus Eli Manning... now, Mark Sanchez has that pedigree - he was a high first round pick. So, maybe he and the Jets will surprise me. But, the defense alone isn't going to get them there - Sanchez is going to have to carry the load on offense to get it done.

jship2121
07-15-2010, 11:31 AM
Again, we seem tobe having some miscommunication. The Jets are a good defense, maybe even a very good defense. But you still haven't answered how this so-called great defense blew fourth quarter leads against the likes of Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville, and Atlanta last year. Hey, it's great that the Jets held Atlanta to 10 points - but it doesn't help if you only score 7.

And as great as Revis is - the Dolphins proved you can run the ball right down the Jets' throats and they had no answer for it. Maybe Kris Jenkins coming back healthy will help that piece of the defense, but you can't be a truly great defense unless you can stuff the run.

My argument is not that the Jets are not a good defense. They are a good defense - and maybe they will be better in 2010 than they were in 2009. That's not my argument, though. My argument is that the Jets are not a good ENOUGH defense to be a Super Bowl contender unless Mark Sanchez plays well at quarterback. Rex Ryan's swagger has put a bullseye on the Jets and they have a lot of hype coming into the season and they are going to be on Hard Knocks and they made a great run to the AFC Championship Game and that's all wonderful - but people forget that this team was 7-7 and got a gift from Bill Polian and Jim Caldwell to make it to the playoffs and then got another gift from Nate Kaeding's foot to make it to the AFC Championship Game.

They don't give out rings for being the #1 defense. They give out rings for winning the Super Bowl. That's what the hyped goal for the Jets is this year. But I don't think they have enough on offense to get it done.

Defense wins championships? Not lately in the NFL. Look at the last few Super Bowl matchups - Brees versus Peyton Manning, Roethlisberger versus Warner, Brady versus Eli Manning... now, Mark Sanchez has that pedigree - he was a high first round pick. So, maybe he and the Jets will surprise me. But, the defense alone isn't going to get them there - Sanchez is going to have to carry the load on offense to get it done.

Well i think it is just common sense to say that a super bowl team needs to be well balanced. Obviously the jets need sanchez to be better and they need to do more on offense in order to be a contender. The packers had an explosive offense and lost in the first round of the playoffs because they couldn't stop the cards. The jets blew some leads and gave up some points, but they were young with a first year head coach, and i've never heard of a team that shutout every opponent every game. Teams will score points, sanchez will have his turnovers. But the key is to limit turnovers on offense and then send a defense to the field that can create turnovers, get good field possession, and control the game defensively. I think the jets have the ability to control a game on defense and then with the improvement of sanchez, the offense will score more points which will lead to more wins.

Wordsworth
07-15-2010, 02:52 PM
I agree with GBPKS that the Jets defense is very good but it's not a totally dominating defense. The addition of Cromartie is mostly just a good name. The guy straight up can't tackle, thus his effectiveness in zone coverage is very questionable. Unless he gets to play man coverage for an entire season he could end up being a liability.

Kris Jenkins can be a force in the middle but as was said before I want him to prove he can stay healthy before I tag him as a lynch pin of the defensive front. If he stays on the field he will make a huge impact.

The Jets have a great defense, yes, maybe the best in the league for a second year running in 2010, but there are a few questions at key positions and I think the offense will have to remain effective in the run game to keep the defense fresh and ready to pounce. They will still be a good team this year.