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BayouBoys
07-12-2010, 04:22 AM
I was just wondering who do you think is the best QB you have ever coached? What about worst?

With that being said..who is the most talented player you have ever coached? I know you worked with Aaron Brooks, that had to be great *COUGH* SARCASM *COUGH*

Turk Schonert
07-13-2010, 06:02 PM
That is always a tough question to answer for me because I haven't coached on many teams that had a proven QB. My first 4 years coaching were in Tampa (92-95) and we had 4 different starting QB's in 4 years...Vinny Testaverde, Steve Deberg, Craig Erickson, Trent Dilfer (rookie year). I then went to buffalo and we flip flopped Rob Johnson and Doug Flutie for 3 years (Flutie leading us to the playoffs). I had Chris Weinke his rookie year in Carolina. Next, I coached Kerry Collins in New York. He was a proven vet who had taken his team to the Super Bowl, but Kerry got hurt the year I coached him and missed the 2nd half of the season. Then I went to New Orleans and coached Aaron Brooks. Aaron had ability and was playing as good as ever during camp and at the beginning of the season. If you recall we went into Carolina (everybody's preseason pick to go to the SB) and beat them on opening day. Unfortunately Katrina did us in and Aaron's game went downhill after that. Back in Buffalo it was JP Losman and Trent Edwards (rookie & 2nd year). Now you can see why this is a tough question for me, but to answer the question, here is a quick synopsis:

Testaverde - physically talented but didn't understand offensive progressions or defensive coverages when I got to Tampa. I coached him for only 1 season but the offensive and defensive concepts he learned helped him become a solid starting QB in the league for many years. I really enjoyed watching him grow into a QB knowing that I was a part of the reason for his rise as a QB.

Flutie - an athlete, a play maker, a winner. Had his best years as a pro when I was coaching him. Had to play to his strengths because of his lack of height. Team believed in him.

Collins - true pro on the field and in the class room. What surprised me the most was how accurate he was with the ball. Could make all of the throws. In the brief time that I got to coach him, he was the most advanced of the QB's that I coached.

*Craig Erickson (1 season), Chris Weinke (1 season), JP Losman, and Trent Edwards had their best year under my tutelage and I am proud of that fact. I don't what its like to have the same QB for 6,7,8, years or more, but it would be nice to experience it.
** I have been teammates with some great QB's: John Elway, Ken Anderson and Boomer Esiason
*** Congrats on your Saints winning the SB. Having gone through Katrina personally, I was very happy for the people of New Orleans and the region.

HiloVulcan
07-13-2010, 07:25 PM
Turk I would like to ask you an honest question, to which I would like an honest reply:

How is it that former athletes who did not necessarily perform at a high level in their respective pro leagues end up getting work as coaches? I know the old adage, "those who cannot do, teach." accounts for some of it, but I am curious as to how this happens.

I will look at your professional (not college) career as an example. It is not an insult when I say it is very unremarkable. It is just an accurate characterization. It appears though, that you've had the opportunity to be around some very outstanding QB's. From the outside looking in, one wonders how it is possible to teach someone to do things that they did not. If it is a question of physical limitations, preventing a very cerebral player (which I suspect is a small percentage of the time) then how do they get to the NFL to begin with?

I can understand going downward and coaching lower levels, but I'm a little lost outside that scenario however. Not all former players have gone to Stanford as you did, so that merely punctuates my question.

Let me give you a real world example: If I blow 2 merger and acquisition deals working at Smith Barney, do you really think I'll get a job doing the same thing at Lehman Brothers? Or even worse, teaching someone how to successfully broker an m&a deal?

Any insight you have would be great.

Colts01
07-18-2010, 12:14 PM
Let me give you a real world example: If I blow 2 merger and acquisition deals working at Smith Barney, do you really think I'll get a job doing the same thing at Lehman Brothers? Or even worse, teaching someone how to successfully broker an m&a deal?

Any insight you have would be great.

While I can see where your trying to going with this question Id have to disagree with your real world example,
first point would be:Turk played 10 years in the NFL....10! One does not last 10 years in the NFL if he cant play!The avg NFL player lasts a little over 3 years time.
Second-Your example of failing an merger/acuqisition deal is N/A.While he didnt play in a pro bowl his career as a starter is 8-5.10 years in the pros and learning under the likes of Bill "freakin" Walsh in college you dont think you learn the game and as an NFL Qb Learn to teach it???? Remember at Stanford Turks Backup was John Elway! Anyway I know your question had no malice in it but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in:)

Turk Schonert
07-18-2010, 01:34 PM
Turk I would like to ask you an honest question, to which I would like an honest reply:

How is it that former athletes who did not necessarily perform at a high level in their respective pro leagues end up getting work as coaches? I know the old adage, "those who cannot do, teach." accounts for some of it, but I am curious as to how this happens.

I will look at your professional (not college) career as an example. It is not an insult when I say it is very unremarkable. It is just an accurate characterization. It appears though, that you've had the opportunity to be around some very outstanding QB's. From the outside looking in, one wonders how it is possible to teach someone to do things that they did not. If it is a question of physical limitations, preventing a very cerebral player (which I suspect is a small percentage of the time) then how do they get to the NFL to begin with?

I can understand going downward and coaching lower levels, but I'm a little lost outside that scenario however. Not all former players have gone to Stanford as you did, so that merely punctuates my question.

Let me give you a real world example: If I blow 2 merger and acquisition deals working at Smith Barney, do you really think I'll get a job doing the same thing at Lehman Brothers? Or even worse, teaching someone how to successfully broker an m&a deal?

Any insight you have would be great.

Obviously you are one of those people who doesn't know details but decide that you know the whole story (like many reporters). Looking at numbers doesn't tell a story, you need to look inside and behind the numbers. I played 10 years in the league and chose to stop when I did. I must of been doing something right to play 10 years. I backed up 2 border line Hall of Fame QB's (Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason) and in my 2nd year Forrest Gregg named me the starting QB in week two after I came into the game in week 1 and brought us back to win from a 21-0 deficit. During our day off Forrest talked with Ken and decided to give him another chance. Knowing that his job was in jeopardy Ken changed his demeanor and his game and went on to be MVP of the NFL that season. Although it might not show up in the numbers I had a huge impact in the Bengals going to the Super Bowl. That is just 1 example. My job was to help the starter and when called upon... win games, not put up stats. I was one of the top backups in the league at that time (no free agency) and could of started on other teams if given the opportunity. I played at a high level for my position and was recognized by my peers. I was 8-5 as a starter and should of been 10-3 (we lost 2 games on the last play, one being a blocked punt run back for a TD). Being able to coach and teach isn't about numbers. Could I teach someone to throw the ball 80 yards ? No... because I couldn't. But could I teach that same QB about footwork, throwing mechanics, film study, recognizing defenses, offensive progressions, leadership, hard work, working with your teammates, etc..... YES !! I was always told by my coaches that I would make a good coach and it wasn't because of numbers. Magic Johnson was a great hall of fame player, yet, not a very good coach. Just because you can or can't do something physically doesn't mean that you're a good or bad coach. Look inside the numbers and you will find much more useful information, I'm sure it would help your merger and acquisition dealer as well ! Ask Cris if they had a Pro Bowl spot for a back up QB, if I wouldn't of made it at least once ?

Colts01
07-18-2010, 01:53 PM
Nuff said !!!

DannyMilk
07-18-2010, 03:07 PM
Hilo was just trying, and succeeded, as a shoe in, for hater of the year

HiloVulcan
07-19-2010, 03:09 AM
Whoa Whoa Milky... who's hatin. Just because you're interacting with a "pro" doesn't mean every question is going to be full of rainbows painted with brushes dipped in sunshine. I asked a question I know many fans have thought of because I've had that conversation myself with friends and acquaintances many times. No one's trying to say Turk shouldn't be coaching, the question was a general one. It's really not that inconceivable, and no one, including Turk should be ruffled by that.

The purpose of the question was not for Turk to validate his coaching credentials, but to address the perception of how it is possible for some coaches to teach someone to be successful in a sport without having those things to point to for the individual they're teaching. And this is not aimed at anyone, just a scenario that occurs at large. Naturally, certain personality traits help some to transition over to coaching better as well as a thorough understanding of the game. Your point about Magic Johnson not being a great coach despite being a great player is well taken, and an example that has a dozen or more counterparts throughout sports. I played bball at a D1 school in the Big East, so I'm no armchair fan here putting pro sports up on a pedestal. I can honestly say that I would've wanted the guy who led the league in assists teaching me how to view passing lanes clearer, and the guy who was a 48% FG shooter from the floor teaching me about my shooting mechanics. If the guy shot 32%, it's hard for me to take his instruction knowing that he's telling me to do things he either couldn't do, or didn't do.


Now if that guy who led the league in assists or shot lights out doesn't have the temperance or patience required, or can't communicate and/or explain concepts effectively, doesn't possess the ability to motivate or any number of intangibles that make coaches good, than his abilities become a moot point and I think that is what you're trying to say.

InNOutBurgler
07-19-2010, 03:39 AM
Whoa Whoa Milky... who's hatin. Just because you're interacting with a "pro" doesn't mean every question is going to be full of rainbows painted with brushes dipped in sunshine. I asked a question I know many fans have thought of because I've had that conversation myself with friends and acquaintances many times. No one's trying to say Turk shouldn't be coaching, the question was a general one. It's really not that inconceivable, and no one, including Turk should be ruffled by that.

The purpose of the question was not for Turk to validate his coaching credentials, but to address the perception of how it is possible for some coaches to teach someone to be successful in a sport without having those things to point to for the individual they're teaching. And this is not aimed at anyone, just a scenario that occurs at large. Naturally, certain personality traits help some to transition over to coaching better as well as a thorough understanding of the game. Your point about Magic Johnson not being a great coach despite being a great player is well taken, and an example that has a dozen or more counterparts throughout sports. I played bball at a D1 school in the Big East, so I'm no armchair fan here putting pro sports up on a pedestal. I can honestly say that I would've wanted the guy who led the league in assists teaching me how to view passing lanes clearer, and the guy who was a 48% FG shooter from the floor teaching me about my shooting mechanics. If the guy shot 32%, it's hard for me to take his instruction knowing that he's telling me to do things he either couldn't do, or didn't do.


Now if that guy who led the league in assists or shot lights out doesn't have the temperance or patience required, or can't communicate and/or explain concepts effectively, doesn't possess the ability to motivate or any number of intangibles that make coaches good, than his abilities become a moot point and I think that is what you're trying to say.

Hilo...I get your question, but it wasn't a nice way to say it nor is your financial industry comparison a good one.

Great players, by and large, make terrible coaches because great players can not understand why someone can't get it or do it like they could. It's the average guys...the guys who had to work hard and outsmart everyone to succeed who tend to be better coaches because they had to work harder.
There are exceptions but for the most part this is the case.

I understand you want honest answers from the pros on this site, but these guys aren't getting paid, they are doing it just to do it and it comes out of Cris' pocket so consider that before you talk down to one of them. I get what you were trying to say but all you had to say was "Why do average players make better coaches?"

Consider yourself regulated....enjoy the site

GoBigOrGoHome
07-19-2010, 03:55 AM
I am going to assume that hilo never saw Turk play. I did. There was not a perceivable dip in the quality of play when he came into/started a game. The Bengals were a tough out back in the 80s no matter who was under center. That team went to 2 Super Bowls in the 80s and saw fit to keep Turk on the roster for both of them. If he were 12-15 years younger, Turk could have been Steve Young or Tom Brady or Steve Bono or Scott Mitchell. But, the Bengals had him locked up and he never got his bite at the apple.

The NFL was a different animal back before free agency. Especially for QBs.

DannyMilk
07-19-2010, 05:37 AM
Player Haters Ball...Chappelle's Show...wasn't insultin ya, just trying to be funny...It won't happen again haha

Andy Freeland
07-19-2010, 11:05 AM
If you look at any sport, hall of fame players rarely make the best coaches. Turk's example of Magic Johnson is a great one. You have Ted Williams and Pete Rose in baseball, Wayne Gretzky in hockey, Art Shell and Bart Starr in football. The real question is, why would there be a coloration? They are 2 distinct skills, playing and teaching/scheming. The best musician won't necessarily be the best music teacher.

By my count there are a total of 6 current head coaches that played in the NFL: Jeff Fisher, Jack Del Rio, Gary Kubiak, Sean Payton, Ken Whisenhunt and Mike Singletary. Payton only played as a replacement player in '87. Only Singletary and Del Rio were consitent starters throughout there careers. That's 2 out of 32. Kubiak would be a good comparison to Turk, though Turk was the better player. He played 9 years as a backup to John Elway. He was probably good enough to start for another team, but because there was no free agency he never got the chance.

My question to hilo is, what possible reason do you have to think only star players can be successful coaches?

ScottDCP
07-19-2010, 11:42 AM
That is always a tough question to answer for me because I haven't coached on many teams that had a proven QB. My first 4 years coaching were in Tampa (92-95) and we had 4 different starting QB's in 4 years...Vinny Testaverde, Steve Deberg, Craig Erickson, Trent Dilfer (rookie year). I then went to buffalo and we flip flopped Rob Johnson and Doug Flutie for 3 years (Flutie leading us to the playoffs). I had Chris Weinke his rookie year in Carolina. Next, I coached Kerry Collins in New York. He was a proven vet who had taken his team to the Super Bowl, but Kerry got hurt the year I coached him and missed the 2nd half of the season. Then I went to New Orleans and coached Aaron Brooks. Aaron had ability and was playing as good as ever during camp and at the beginning of the season. If you recall we went into Carolina (everybody's preseason pick to go to the SB) and beat them on opening day. Unfortunately Katrina did us in and Aaron's game went downhill after that. Back in Buffalo it was JP Losman and Trent Edwards (rookie & 2nd year). Now you can see why this is a tough question for me, but to answer the question, here is a quick synopsis:

Testaverde - physically talented but didn't understand offensive progressions or defensive coverages when I got to Tampa. I coached him for only 1 season but the offensive and defensive concepts he learned helped him become a solid starting QB in the league for many years. I really enjoyed watching him grow into a QB knowing that I was a part of the reason for his rise as a QB.

Flutie - an athlete, a play maker, a winner. Had his best years as a pro when I was coaching him. Had to play to his strengths because of his lack of height. Team believed in him.

Collins - true pro on the field and in the class room. What surprised me the most was how accurate he was with the ball. Could make all of the throws. In the brief time that I got to coach him, he was the most advanced of the QB's that I coached.

*Craig Erickson (1 season), Chris Weinke (1 season), JP Losman, and Trent Edwards had their best year under my tutelage and I am proud of that fact. I don't what its like to have the same QB for 6,7,8, years or more, but it would be nice to experience it.
** I have been teammates with some great QB's: John Elway, Ken Anderson and Boomer Esiason
*** Congrats on your Saints winning the SB. Having gone through Katrina personally, I was very happy for the people of New Orleans and the region.

I understand the desire to not go public with something as subjective as this, so I'll do it for you - it was Flutie.

Colts01
07-21-2010, 08:22 PM
My question to hilo is, what possible reason do you have to think only star players can be successful coaches?

I think history has shown that being a star player has no merit on ones ability to coach,its a different animal

Bengals1181
07-22-2010, 11:15 AM
regardless of Turk's playing history, Hilo's comments are just way off base. You don't have to be a great player to be a coach.


Take Jason Garrett for example. Average backup QB to most sought after OC/HC Candidate in the league.

Did Belichick ever play the game? Nothing more than small time college ball.


John Kitna is another example I think you'll see soon. So-so starting QB, but strong leader and incredibly smart QB.

Cris Collinsworth
07-22-2010, 11:44 AM
Whoa Whoa Milky... who's hatin. Just because you're interacting with a "pro" doesn't mean every question is going to be full of rainbows painted with brushes dipped in sunshine. I asked a question I know many fans have thought of because I've had that conversation myself with friends and acquaintances many times. No one's trying to say Turk shouldn't be coaching, the question was a general one. It's really not that inconceivable, and no one, including Turk should be ruffled by that.

The purpose of the question was not for Turk to validate his coaching credentials, but to address the perception of how it is possible for some coaches to teach someone to be successful in a sport without having those things to point to for the individual they're teaching. And this is not aimed at anyone, just a scenario that occurs at large. Naturally, certain personality traits help some to transition over to coaching better as well as a thorough understanding of the game. Your point about Magic Johnson not being a great coach despite being a great player is well taken, and an example that has a dozen or more counterparts throughout sports. I played bball at a D1 school in the Big East, so I'm no armchair fan here putting pro sports up on a pedestal. I can honestly say that I would've wanted the guy who led the league in assists teaching me how to view passing lanes clearer, and the guy who was a 48% FG shooter from the floor teaching me about my shooting mechanics. If the guy shot 32%, it's hard for me to take his instruction knowing that he's telling me to do things he either couldn't do, or didn't do.


Now if that guy who led the league in assists or shot lights out doesn't have the temperance or patience required, or can't communicate and/or explain concepts effectively, doesn't possess the ability to motivate or any number of intangibles that make coaches good, than his abilities become a moot point and I think that is what you're trying to say.

I didn't have a problem with the question. I think it is fair to ask what makes great coaches. I really believe that the guys who don't start often work harder than the starters because it makes them crazy to stand on the sidelines. Quarterbacks often know more about the offense than the coaches. They know every player's assignment, and have a much more hands on feel to how the play is run in practice and games. Plus, the starting QB trusts the back-up more in private conversations than the coach. That relationship building is a huge part of what makes a successful coach.

And it is true, we would have never made the Super Bowl without Turk in 1981. We were down 21-0 in the season opener to Seattle, getting booed at home in my first game ever, and Turk replaced Kenny Anderson and led us to a 27-21 win. Maybe the greatest comeback win in Bengals history. Then Turk got screwed by not starting the next week. Kenny Anderson got another chance and took us to the Super Bowl and got the MVP, but it would not have happened without Turk. I often wonder if Turk would have been Kurt Warner if he had started week 2. Turk also had one game against Atlanta where he was nearly perfect. Something like 23 for 27.

Turk Schonert
07-22-2010, 12:01 PM
Whoa Whoa Milky... who's hatin. Just because you're interacting with a "pro" doesn't mean every question is going to be full of rainbows painted with brushes dipped in sunshine. I asked a question I know many fans have thought of because I've had that conversation myself with friends and acquaintances many times. No one's trying to say Turk shouldn't be coaching, the question was a general one. It's really not that inconceivable, and no one, including Turk should be ruffled by that.

The purpose of the question was not for Turk to validate his coaching credentials, but to address the perception of how it is possible for some coaches to teach someone to be successful in a sport without having those things to point to for the individual they're teaching. And this is not aimed at anyone, just a scenario that occurs at large. Naturally, certain personality traits help some to transition over to coaching better as well as a thorough understanding of the game. Your point about Magic Johnson not being a great coach despite being a great player is well taken, and an example that has a dozen or more counterparts throughout sports. I played bball at a D1 school in the Big East, so I'm no armchair fan here putting pro sports up on a pedestal. I can honestly say that I would've wanted the guy who led the league in assists teaching me how to view passing lanes clearer, and the guy who was a 48% FG shooter from the floor teaching me about my shooting mechanics. If the guy shot 32%, it's hard for me to take his instruction knowing that he's telling me to do things he either couldn't do, or didn't do.


Now if that guy who led the league in assists or shot lights out doesn't have the temperance or patience required, or can't communicate and/or explain concepts effectively, doesn't possess the ability to motivate or any number of intangibles that make coaches good, than his abilities become a moot point and I think that is what you're trying to say.

Hilo, you would need 10 coaches to coach you with your scenario. Did Phil Jackson lead the league in assists, FG shooting, FT shooting, rebounds, defensive steals ? No he didn't, but he has the ability to teach mechanics and concepts and get his players to play within the system. Players who aren't the "super star" spend more time observing the game, and studying the game, because they want to continue working in their perspective sport when their playing days are over. They talk to other coaches & players about the game, philosophies, techniques etc. Coaches may not be able to due something physically as fast or as good, but they can walk or jog through drills to show you what they are talking about. Also, many Super Stars have an "IT" factor that can't be taught.

Andy Freeland
07-22-2010, 12:10 PM
Turk also had one game against Atlanta where he was nearly perfect.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198411250cin.htm
20-23 for 288 yards, 2 TDs (both to Cris) - 1 INT, 129.6 rating in 35-14 Bengals' win.

Gandalf2300
07-22-2010, 12:47 PM
To be in the NFL for 10 years is an accomplishment. There are many players who play in a lesser role on a certain team, when they would be a starter elsewhere. The quality of a playing career has little correlation to success as a coach. When one looks at the great coaches of the NFL, not all of them were distinguished as players-Bill Cowher was a great coach but did not have a HOF playing career. There are many examples of those who were great on the field or court (Magic Johnson or Isiah Thomas) but were lousy coaches. Larry Bird was one of the greatest of all time on the court, but was only so-so as a coach. UNC basketball coach (retired) Dean Smith was not a fabulous player, but built one of the great sports dynasties of all time.

A player may be able to execute on the field, but not understand the concepts behind a playbook or be able to explain them to others. He may not have the leadership to get others to listen to him. There are, for example, some of the world's finest musicians who do not teach a single student, because they don't have the ability or desire to do so. The key question for a coach is-do the players develop and improve their performance on the field under their tutelage? Is their offensive/defensive/special teams system achieve results on the field? Do players follow the lead of this coach-are they motivated to run through walls to do what the coach wants?

The prototypical example is Dick LeBeau of the Steelers-he happened to also be an excellent player in his day, but he not only has a defensive system that achieves consistent results-his players are super-motivated to follow his lead and execute his system. He garners a respect/reverence from his players that not many coaches have. He was a head coach for a few years, but his calling is Defensive Coordinator. How wise it was for Tomlin to keep LeBeau and allow him to continue to run his scheme (though it is different from the Tampa 2 that Tomlin ran earlier in his career). LeBeau's system just WORKS, and his players follow his lead. This example also illustrates how important it is for an NFL team to establish an 'identity' on offense, defense, special teams, and get players who can execute that system. Such an identity can only be established by coordinators and position coaches who are able to teach and are on the same page with each other.

HiloVulcan
07-22-2010, 03:51 PM
Well well... it took awhile, but it appears we have a legitimate thread gentlemen. Quite a few spirited replies. Thanks for all of your responses, especially you, Turk.

To answer Andy's question, I don't believe coaching is the sole domain of only "star players". For me, and I can't speak for everyone else but some of us were raised by the old adage, "In order to be the best, you have to learn from the best, then beat the best". Clearly a philosophy 'Bron 'Bron doesn't embrace (at least the latter portion). Hence my examples of my own preferences.

Now I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm no coach... (I'll wait until you catch your collective breath). But I thought the question was fair, and I appreciate all of the insights.

FootballFan
07-22-2010, 04:37 PM
Well well... it took awhile, but it appears we have a legitimate thread gentlemen. Quite a few spirited replies. Thanks for all of your responses, especially you, Turk.

To answer Andy's question, I don't believe coaching is the sole domain of only "star players". For me, and I can't speak for everyone else but some of us were raised by the old adage, "In order to be the best, you have to learn from the best, then beat the best". Clearly a philosophy 'Bron 'Bron doesn't embrace (at least the latter portion). Hence my examples of my own preferences.

Now I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm no coach... (I'll wait until you catch your collective breath). But I thought the question was fair, and I appreciate all of the insights.

I don't like your tone. This is what you consider a "legitimate thread" - and it's "taken awhile"? I wish I hadn't opened it.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here that it's ignorance at work here, rather than simply trying to get a rise out of somebody on an internet chat board. These guys didn't create this website for that - and I hope it doesn't filter in here, and if that really was the motivation - quit it.

I applaud the contributors for responding as graciously as you did.

FootballFan
07-22-2010, 04:45 PM
That is always a tough question to answer for me because I haven't coached on many teams that had a proven QB. My first 4 years coaching were in Tampa (92-95) and we had 4 different starting QB's in 4 years...Vinny Testaverde, Steve Deberg, Craig Erickson, Trent Dilfer (rookie year). I then went to buffalo and we flip flopped Rob Johnson and Doug Flutie for 3 years (Flutie leading us to the playoffs). I had Chris Weinke his rookie year in Carolina. Next, I coached Kerry Collins in New York. He was a proven vet who had taken his team to the Super Bowl, but Kerry got hurt the year I coached him and missed the 2nd half of the season. Then I went to New Orleans and coached Aaron Brooks. Aaron had ability and was playing as good as ever during camp and at the beginning of the season. If you recall we went into Carolina (everybody's preseason pick to go to the SB) and beat them on opening day. Unfortunately Katrina did us in and Aaron's game went downhill after that. Back in Buffalo it was JP Losman and Trent Edwards (rookie & 2nd year). Now you can see why this is a tough question for me, but to answer the question, here is a quick synopsis:

Testaverde - physically talented but didn't understand offensive progressions or defensive coverages when I got to Tampa. I coached him for only 1 season but the offensive and defensive concepts he learned helped him become a solid starting QB in the league for many years. I really enjoyed watching him grow into a QB knowing that I was a part of the reason for his rise as a QB.

Flutie - an athlete, a play maker, a winner. Had his best years as a pro when I was coaching him. Had to play to his strengths because of his lack of height. Team believed in him.

Collins - true pro on the field and in the class room. What surprised me the most was how accurate he was with the ball. Could make all of the throws. In the brief time that I got to coach him, he was the most advanced of the QB's that I coached.

*Craig Erickson (1 season), Chris Weinke (1 season), JP Losman, and Trent Edwards had their best year under my tutelage and I am proud of that fact. I don't what its like to have the same QB for 6,7,8, years or more, but it would be nice to experience it.
** I have been teammates with some great QB's: John Elway, Ken Anderson and Boomer Esiason
*** Congrats on your Saints winning the SB. Having gone through Katrina personally, I was very happy for the people of New Orleans and the region.

I have to confess, Turk Schonert wasn't a name that I recognized. Reading through this though, plenty of - oh yeah - that guy! memories. I'd like to change directions in the thread if you notice this post Turk - I'm curious as to which head coach you have worked with did you enjoy the most and why. Same question to Collinsworth and the other guys.

In my experience, I think coaches boil down to two types of guys. Coaches that try to make their players do their best by making the UNcomfortble, vs. coaches that try to make their players do their best by making them comfortable. Examples of each in my judgement - Tom Landry, Bill Walsh, Tony Dungy - comfortable type guys vs. Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, Jeff Fisher - uncomfortable guys. Where did your coaches fit in? Do you agree with my assessment?

Colts01
07-22-2010, 05:26 PM
I can tell you Tony Dungy Doesnt try to make his payers feel comfortable,he demanded ALOT of his players,both on and off the field,do not let his calm demeaner fool you,just because he didnt need to cuss his players out doesnt mean he didnt demand as much or more then Parcells and the like....
my 2 cents:D

HiloVulcan
07-22-2010, 05:29 PM
I don't like your tone. This is what you consider a "legitimate thread" - and it's "taken awhile"? I wish I hadn't opened it.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here that it's ignorance at work here, rather than simply trying to get a rise out of somebody on an internet chat board. These guys didn't create this website for that - and I hope it doesn't filter in here, and if that really was the motivation - quit it.

I applaud the contributors for responding as graciously as you did.


You "don't like my tone"? What is this open mic hour down at the retirement home? Save the chastising for your nurses g-pa, and I'll be sure to send you a Miracle Ear so that you can hear the tone accurately next time. You either don't read well, or are just reading the thread for the first time. The initial question went unanswered for a little bit, and slowly but surely it has picked up some steam as far as responses and viewpoints lately.


I won't even give the rest of your diatribe the respect of a legitimate reply.

FootballFan
07-22-2010, 05:47 PM
I can tell you Tony Dungy Doesnt try to make his payers feel comfortable,he demanded ALOT of his players,both on and off the field,do not let his calm demeaner fool you,just because he didnt need to cuss his players out doesnt mean he didnt demand as much or more then Parcells and the like....
my 2 cents:D

You're absolutely right. It's not about demanding top performance. All coaches do. What I'm getting at is the different ways that coaches go about getting their players to put out those top performances. I think that coaches basically fall into two types of categories, and the best I can describe it simply - is as I've done. Another way to understand is from the player perspective. Many football palyers simply don't respond well unless they're on edge about what the coach thinks about them, their job security (i.e. their roster spot on the depth chart) etc. Bill Parcells was notorious for driving his players crazy -and he is and always has been good at finding players that respond well to that type of motivation. Dungy - as far as I can tell - was always straight up with his players and always there to listen to them. Totally different type of motivation - and unless you match that up with highly - self motivated - individuals that are oging to keep finding things to improve no matter how good their palying (I.e. payton manning) - it might not work out well. Same is true for the opposite coach/;player personality matchup = a guys like Paytone Manning and BIll Parcells would probably have had a bad relationship, I think.


(I posted a new thread on Turk's page hoping to get his input on this question - I"m going to put this over there too ok)

KevinG
07-23-2010, 11:23 AM
I don't think any coach worth his salt would use just one "style" of coaching for every player. The good ones learn their players and learn what buttons to push, and how hard to push them, to get the desired results out of them.

msclemons
07-23-2010, 10:50 PM
If you read Joe Montana's book you'll see Bill Walsh never made him feel comfortable. Walsh kept Montana on the hot seat even after he's established HoF credentials.

BayouBoys
07-26-2010, 06:36 AM
Sorry this took so long but thanks for answering my question, Turk! I'm sorry to hear you were in the NO during katrina. It was a rough time and I would never wish it upon my worst enemy. Things are starting to bounce back but thanks.

I am also sad to see that my thread that I really wanted to come back to had to become a bit of a bash fest. Oh well, boys will be boys as they say. haha.

I do agree with you on your coaching points, my father was a football coach and I learned a lot from him. Especially now that I have learned a lot more and actually have legit questions to ask him. And I really don't like the attitude of a player who only wants to learn from "the best of the best"...sure that's great, but sometimes a person can learn from his mistakes and help you learn from your future ones. The NFL is where you might have to have credentials because some players believe they have to sit on this high throne (NOT ALL OF THEM! but some) while in high school and college you just have to command their respect. Be it by your past or by your knowledge. But hey, I'm not getting into this petty fight.

Thanks again Turk! PS....If you are ever in New Orleans, you have a gumbo and a meal on me over at Drago's or crescent city steakhouse! haha!

Turk Schonert
07-26-2010, 03:45 PM
You're absolutely right. It's not about demanding top performance. All coaches do. What I'm getting at is the different ways that coaches go about getting their players to put out those top performances. I think that coaches basically fall into two types of categories, and the best I can describe it simply - is as I've done. Another way to understand is from the player perspective. Many football palyers simply don't respond well unless they're on edge about what the coach thinks about them, their job security (i.e. their roster spot on the depth chart) etc. Bill Parcells was notorious for driving his players crazy -and he is and always has been good at finding players that respond well to that type of motivation. Dungy - as far as I can tell - was always straight up with his players and always there to listen to them. Totally different type of motivation - and unless you match that up with highly - self motivated - individuals that are oging to keep finding things to improve no matter how good their palying (I.e. payton manning) - it might not work out well. Same is true for the opposite coach/;player personality matchup = a guys like Paytone Manning and BIll Parcells would probably have had a bad relationship, I think.


(I posted a new thread on Turk's page hoping to get his input on this question - I"m going to put this over there too ok)

There are many styles in coaching. Saying that, every coach has to be himself. Players will see right through a coach who tries to be somebody he isn't. Getting players to believe in what you are saying and how you are going to get it done are vital ingredients to a coach's success. There must be a trust factor, you don't want to be a players best friend but you must gain a players trust in order to get his best. Being up front and honest is a great start to gaining that trust. Some coaches believe in an open door policy, some stay distant, some use a fear factor. All good philosophies. Coaches have to find out what works best for them through their rise in the coaching ranks. Coaches don't want players to become too comfortable in their own skin and have to find ways to keep players interested and motivated. Having players who are; self motivated, committed to being the best player they can be, hungry to win and have a passion for the game make coaching much more enjoyable. I think Peyton and Parcells would of gotten along great !

Turk Schonert
07-26-2010, 05:22 PM
I would be remiss to only mention one coach. I enjoyed playing for and coaching with many coaches.

Coaches I played for and why I enjoyed it:
Bill Walsh - great teacher, creativity & vision, QB mechanics
Forrest Gregg - discipline, toughness (our team desperately needed both), up front guy
Sam Wyche - innovative, Bill Walsh disciple, made playing QB fun, passionate, edgy

Coaches I worked with and why I enjoyed it:
Sam Wyche - see above, plus his belief and trust in me as a coach
Wade Phillips - knowledge, easy to work with, could see and hear his belief in me (didn't know him prior to working with him)
Jim Fassel - prior relationship (my QB coach at Stanford), trust and belief in me, go for it attitude, motivator, had tough love relationship with his players
Jim Haslett - toughness, up front guy, handling of the players and everything that came with Katrina (should of been coach of the year in my opinion), communicator
* The media tagged some of these coaches as being players coaches or soft. Let me tell you, each one could and would rip a player or players behind closed doors (coaches as well).

FessJL0861
07-26-2010, 05:42 PM
Jim Haslett - toughness, up front guy, handling of the players and everything that came with Katrina (should of been coach of the year in my opinion), communicator
* The media tagged some of these coaches as being players coaches or soft. Let me tell you, each one could and would rip a player or players behind closed doors (coaches as well).

Just wondering Turk, but do you think Haslett had the Saints on the path to where they ended up, or was it the Sean Payton switch that made it magic?

bluestree
07-26-2010, 06:15 PM
I didn't have a problem with the question. I think it is fair to ask what makes great coaches. I really believe that the guys who don't start often work harder than the starter... Quarterbacks often know more about the offense than the coaches.

Turk was obviously more than up to handling the question, and took it to the next level. More knowledge in this thread than any other so far. Coaching is a form of communication, a totally different skill set. It's not a performance, like an athletic contest is.
Maybe there is a good reason why you see more guys like Turk coaching than Dan Marino's. Like Cris alluded to, all the while you're on the sidelines, you're still in the game, you're doing it in your head. Your focus is still sharp. And your job is to be a communicator as well. That's better preparation for coaching than being the starter.

bluestree
07-26-2010, 06:25 PM
Getting players to believe in what you are saying and how you are going to get it done are vital ingredients to a coach's success.

I spent two years coaching nine and ten year olds. You aren't going to teach the vast majority of them a lot of technique. However, you can teach them to believe they can get the job done. We won the trophy both years because my kids believed I could put them in a position to win. They believed in me, and I in them. Oh yeah, and I always made sure I had at least one kid who was really fast.

Turk Schonert
07-26-2010, 06:25 PM
Just wondering Turk, but do you think Haslett had the Saints on the path to where they ended up, or was it the Sean Payton switch that made it magic?

Haslett was on the right path, he just needed Drew Brees. He tells me that all the time when I talk with him.

BayouBoys
07-29-2010, 04:45 PM
I like your take on Haslett (about Katrina). I will say I always felt he was a "player's" coach but I'm sure you would know more than the media. Nice. I would have to say that I did enjoy what Haslett did for us during that time but I can't say that just by getting Drew Brees he would have switched us into another gear. Yes, Drew Brees is a leader and takes very nice control over the team but with Coach Payton he brought about a new feeling around the team. It was this belief that the team was actually good. Not saying Haslett could have moved it forward (I do believe he was a bit D minded to take full advantage of Brees) but I think that it was time for a change of scenery. Sometimes that is just the right thing.

I will say this, I am very interested in what Haslett does over there in Washington. They have some great players on that side of the ball.

Turk Schonert
07-29-2010, 07:20 PM
I like your take on Haslett (about Katrina). I will say I always felt he was a "player's" coach but I'm sure you would know more than the media. Nice. I would have to say that I did enjoy what Haslett did for us during that time but I can't say that just by getting Drew Brees he would have switched us into another gear. Yes, Drew Brees is a leader and takes very nice control over the team but with Coach Payton he brought about a new feeling around the team. It was this belief that the team was actually good. Not saying Haslett could have moved it forward (I do believe he was a bit D minded to take full advantage of Brees) but I think that it was time for a change of scenery. Sometimes that is just the right thing.

I will say this, I am very interested in what Haslett does over there in Washington. They have some great players on that side of the ball.

There is always going to be a new or fresh feeling with a new coach. The reason a new coach is there is usually because the team just had a losing season, and nobody feels good after a losing season. New Orleans and Saints fans just went through a horrific time, a new face and energy after that is refreshing. I can't tell you how tired the coaches were. Payton was fresh, he didn't go through a season and a catastrophic event at the same time. I'm not taking anything away from Sean, I think he was an excellent hire, and has done a terrific job. Sean gets to coach the way he wants to because he has Drew Brees as his QB. He is an aggressive coach and gets away with some calls because his QB bails him out. I do believe that if Haslett hadn't gone through Katrina, and the Saints acquired Drew Brees, he would've gotten that team back to the playoffs, a Super Bowl win ... can't guarantee that. I too am going to be watching what he does in Washington !!

BayouBoys
08-02-2010, 01:58 AM
Yes what he does in Washington should be interesting. I wonder how he is handling this Haynesworth situation. I thought about what you said earlier that if Haslett had Brees back in the day he could have gone further. I have to agree just because of how amazing our defense was back then. (La'roi Glover, Joe Johnson, and Norman Hand holding the line down to name a few) That would have been interesting to see what he could have done. But hey, can't live in the past. I am glad he stuck around after katrina and pushed the team on. I am glad we gave Deuce a ring after this year.

Turk, do you want to coach anymore? Or are you done for good? Or do you need some R & R!

Turk Schonert
08-02-2010, 01:12 PM
Yes what he does in Washington should be interesting. I wonder how he is handling this Haynesworth situation. I thought about what you said earlier that if Haslett had Brees back in the day he could have gone further. I have to agree just because of how amazing our defense was back then. (La'roi Glover, Joe Johnson, and Norman Hand holding the line down to name a few) That would have been interesting to see what he could have done. But hey, can't live in the past. I am glad he stuck around after katrina and pushed the team on. I am glad we gave Deuce a ring after this year.

Turk, do you want to coach anymore? Or are you done for good? Or do you need some R & R!

Deuce is good people, I was happy for him as well.
I do want to coach. I'm taking this year off, but I will be looking to catch on with someone after this season. Wish me luck !