Aqib Talib Traded to Patriots

Wow, this shocks me a little. While I think his suspension is just stupid (Adderall is an ADHD drug, and not, in any way, perfomance enhancing), it is his second one in four years. I'm not sure I like the cutting of Sterling Moore to open up the roster spot. While Talib is certainly more talented than Moore is, Sterling has made key plays for us. If Talib signs a reasonable new deal and stays out of suspension trouble, this may turn out to be a good deal, but color me meh on it at this point.

Originally Posted by Amy

Wow, this shocks me a little. While I think his suspension is just stupid (Adderall is an ADHD drug, and not, in any way, perfomance enhancing), it is his second one in four years.

I didn't know anything about Adderall so I looked it up. It seems to count as both a recreational drug and as a performance enhancer (although I have no idea if he took the drug before games.)

Adderall is abused mostly by college students and young adults. Estimates are that somewhere between 20-30 percent of college students regularly abuse Adderall.

Adderall has the dubious distinction of being the latest addition to the rogue's gallery of lawful drugs that have made the transition to the black market. In recent years, abuse of Adderall and its imitators has increased by nearly 200 percent. Calling it an "upper" is like calling a hydrogen bomb a grenade. It is made of pure amphetamine, it's already picked up its share of street monikers: Speed, Beans, Black Beauties, Christmas Trees, and Double Trouble, amongst others.

Originally Posted by Amy

Wow, this shocks me a little. While I think his suspension is just stupid (Adderall is an ADHD drug, and not, in any way, perfomance enhancing), it is his second one in four years. I'm not sure I like the cutting of Sterling Moore to open up the roster spot. While Talib is certainly more talented than Moore is, Sterling has made key plays for us. If Talib signs a reasonable new deal and stays out of suspension trouble, this may turn out to be a good deal, but color me meh on it at this point.

This is absolutely correct. Adderall does not enhance physical performance. It is a stimulant, a shot of caffeine...well more like several cups of coffee but it doesn't make you faster or stronger than the other guy. It is also an appetite suppressant, resulting in weight loss. There are 2 reasons for an athlete to use it. A)to increase metabolism and cut excess water weight, or B)because it's a legal way to get that cocaine high.

Adderall is a stimulant and is banned by the NFL, NCAA and MLB. Because of the ban under the blanket of these sports, Adderall is inaccurately labeled a performance enhancing drug.

I'm not trying to spin away from the OP topic, but the NFL and other sports really needs to take another look at the ban lists.

Adderall absolutely is performance enhancing. It increases speed and reaction time. Why do you think so many NFL players are taking it? If it is prescribed by a doctor, it is for a medical reason. As an example, if you were to take a shot of morphine, it would get you very high. If you just woke up from major surgery, or have terminal cancer, it alleviates pain, but does not get you high. It is when drugs are abused, is when they are performance enhancing.

Originally Posted by sambam44

Adderall absolutely is performance enhancing. It increases speed and reaction time. Why do you think so many NFL players are taking it? If it is prescribed by a doctor, it is for a medical reason. As an example, if you were to take a shot of morphine, it would get you very high. If you just woke up from major surgery, or have terminal cancer, it alleviates pain, but does not get you high. It is when drugs are abused, is when they are performance enhancing.

Adderall, and other amphetamines and methylphenidate are like I stated above, stimulants. Stimulants increase the heart rate. This can be as little as 3-6 BPM or as high as 40 BPM (which is serious). Intense sessions of running (like a football player) would increase the chance of cardiovascular events and this could be extremely dangerous.

It is when drugs are abused, is when they are performance enhancing.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If that is the case, Blaine Gabbert should get hooked on crack.

It increases speed and reaction time

Says who? You? The interwebs?
Increased speed and reaction time is based solely upon muscle physiology and training.

Originally Posted by sambam44

Adderall absolutely is performance enhancing. It increases speed and reaction time. Why do you think so many NFL players are taking it?

Sure seems to me that a stimulant like "pure amphetamine" can be performance enhancing. Here's what I found on another stimulant, caffeine:

Does it Work?
The data are pretty convincing that caffeine is effective at improving athletic performance for a number of sports. Caffeine has been shown to improve endurance and time trial performance in cyclists, improve endurance in runners, and improve performance times and power in rowers. It also has been shown to boost performance in intense short-term cycling and running events lasting 5 minutes, and to increase peak power output, speed, and isokinetic strength in sprint and power events lasting less than 10 seconds. Researchers studying tennis players found that caffeine increased hitting accuracy, speed and agility, and overall playing success on the court. And players reported feeling more energy late in their matches.

Thus, it seems to work for a number of sports and events, but it doesn't help in all cases. For example, caffeine has clearly been shown to have no effect, and may even be a negative factor, in sprint and power events lasting anywhere from 15 seconds to 3 minutes.

He only blamed it on Adderall because a couple other guys got some media love when they explained that they had been suspended for it. Talib is an idiot violent offender.

Of course I am just guessing.

Calling it an "upper" is like calling a hydrogen bomb a grenade.

Nope. Calling it an upper is like calling it speed.

Remember that the NFL considers viagra a Performance Enhancing Drug. [insert joke here]. Remember that a Dallas coach got suspended for it.

And just because a doctor subscribes it, doesn't make it for "medical" reasons. I am sure the doctors prescribed adderal to all those NFL players because they are soon to be taking the LSATs.

And "medical" reasons aren't good enough to stay punishment. What is the main use for black market baseball hgh? Quick recovery from injury. That sort of sounds like a medical reason to me....

The problem simply is that improving performance IS the reason for medicine. Either up to your prior norms, if you hit a medical problem which knocks you down. Or up to national norms, if you have a condition from birth, like being 5'7". Or bring you up past each of those.

It's all THE SAME THING, but people and sports are trying to call one white and the other black.

And let me ask a further question. Let's say a QB really does have a long term learning disorder, from a genetic trend. Not enough to put him in a nut house as a kid, but enough to place him under the national norms for ability to study. Taking adderal allows him to blend his natural high levels of testosterone and genetic predisposition of height (with a lot of hard work) with a normal ability to study to become a quarterback.

And my kid, who has a genetic predisposition to study, but low testosterone and height, who cannot become (with a lot of hard work) an NFL quarterback because hgh and testosterone are banned by Roger.

So why is one long term, pharmaceutically treatable condition OK, but the other is cheating?

PEDs / PEM rules don't actually make any sense. Unless you consider the brain as not a component of athletic excellence. Which all of us here know is wrong. Brain medicine GOOD. Body medicine CHEATING.

Sure...{}

Originally Posted by Curtis

Adderall, and other amphetamines and methylphenidate are like I stated above, stimulants. Stimulants increase the heart rate. This can be as little as 3-6 BPM or as high as 40 BPM (which is serious). Intense sessions of running (like a football player) would increase the chance of cardiovascular events and this could be extremely dangerous.


That makes no sense whatsoever. If that is the case, Blaine Gabbert should get hooked on crack.


Says who? You? The interwebs?
Increased speed and reaction time is based solely upon muscle physiology and training.

Curtis, My wife is a nurse, my best friend is a doctor, and my son is on ADHD meds. I have researched this to death with multiple sources. Let me ask you, where did you get your medical degree? Again, if it does not improve performance, than why are so many NFL players getting busted for it? Recreational purpose? I doubt it, they can get much better recreational drugs than Adderall

My wife was a professional dancer, but I still can't dance to save my life. I don't have a medical degree. I did go to college for Kinesiology but sadly I didn't finish. I get periodicals about sports medicine, steroids and the like. I know how many of these substances are used and why. Adderall makes you more alert. But being more alert does not make you run faster.

Adderall is metamphetamine. It's controlled by prescription, it's abused by college students, regular joes and obviously athletes. Talib has been busted for weed a few times, and now he is busted for Adderall usage. The math is simple. He doesn't have glaucoma so having an excuse for weed is difficult. But he can say he has ADHD and get a pass on getting high.
Plus, there is no cocaine, weed, heroin or whatnot in their drug tests. Just a LEGAL prescription drug with a built in excuse, and it carries no stigma.

So tell me...can your son outrun you now? Does he have more stamina? Do you take Adderall to keep up with him? What's his 40 time on and off the drug? Is he a super jock now or is he just a kid that pays attention or both?

So tell me...why did Garrett Hartley, the Saints kicker get suspended for Adderall? Did he use it to kick FG more accurately? Maybe he needed to take his three steps to the ball quicker? What performance did he need to enhance?

So the Patriots just vastly improved one of their weak spots - a nice move indeed.

And that's the bottom line, improve your team in any way you can. Obviously the draft is the best way, but free agents and trades can help, especially if that player fits your scheme.

Originally Posted by darvon

And let me ask a further question. Let's say a QB really does have a long term learning disorder, from a genetic trend. Not enough to put him in a nut house as a kid, but enough to place him under the national norms for ability to study. Taking adderal allows him to blend his natural high levels of testosterone and genetic predisposition of height (with a lot of hard work) with a normal ability to study to become a quarterback.

And my kid, who has a genetic predisposition to study, but low testosterone and height, who cannot become (with a lot of hard work) an NFL quarterback because hgh and testosterone are banned by Roger.

So why is one long term, pharmaceutically treatable condition OK, but the other is cheating?

PEDs / PEM rules don't actually make any sense. Unless you consider the brain as not a component of athletic excellence. Which all of us here know is wrong. Brain medicine GOOD. Body medicine CHEATING.

Sure...{}

How would Roger know if your young man took testosterone as an adolescent to stimulate his growth? He wouldn't. Therefore, you failed as a father!

I suggest the obvious: that drugs alone do not an athlete make. Unless, of course, you can find one that will magically improve my hand-eye coordination.

I know we're in the area of one of your pet peeves. And I'm loathe to get into this with you. I do believe, however, that the difference between medicine and performance-enhancing is this: one seeks to restore your body to its natural, healthy state; the other seeks to boost the body to a level beyond its natural, healthy state.

Originally Posted by Curtis

So tell me...why did Garrett Hartley, the Saints kicker get suspended for Adderall? Did he use it to kick FG more accurately? Maybe he needed to take his three steps to the ball quicker? What performance did he need to enhance?

If a kicker can take something that helps you block out all distractions and focus on your job, you don't consider that to be performance enhancing? I would. Getting your energy up before a game isn't performance enhancing? Again, I disagree.

I've read a number of people connected to baseball saying that the biggest performance enhancer in the major leagues was "greenies" or other amphetamines, because it helps you deal with the grind of a season. Don't people always also talk about the football season being a grind?

This is setting aside the question of how drugs, performance enhancing or otherwise, are regulated by leagues. I have opinions on that, but that's somewhat tangential to this already tangential discussion.

On the original topic, I like the Talib trade for the Pats, so long as they continue to be willing to cut problem players if they get signs they aren't fitting in. Clearly, the Pats need some secondary help, so why not roll the dice? Trade also makes sense for Tampa Bay, though - get someone who has been a problem out of that locker room.

I knew I should have never typed a single word in this thread, so I am bowing out of this discussion because it only leads to a stalemate.

Note to self: Never start or add to an internet discussion about Steroids, HgH, and PEDs. Because on the internet, belief and opinion outweighs evidence and fact.

Originally Posted by Curtis

I knew I should have never typed a single word in this thread, so I am bowing out of this discussion because it only leads to a stalemate.

Note to self: Never start or add to an internet discussion about Steroids, HgH, and PEDs. Because on the internet, belief and opinion outweighs evidence and fact.

If you're going to bow out and not discuss because you don't think it's going to be productive, that's cool, but there's no real need to be insulting on your way out.

Also, if the "facts" were as clear-cut as you thought, there wouldn't be arguments. Other people than you have studied this, and some of them have come to different conclusions. We can leave it at that.

Originally Posted by cml

If you're going to bow out and not discuss because you don't think it's going to be productive, that's cool, but there's no real need to be insulting on your way out.

Also, if the "facts" were as clear-cut as you thought, there wouldn't be arguments. Other people than you have studied this, and some of them have come to different conclusions. We can leave it at that.

I'll answer your post only in the hope that you stick around and post more in the forums.

I'll give you an example why this discussion goes nowhere. You said this:

If a kicker can take something that helps you block out all distractions and focus on your job, you don't consider that to be performance enhancing? I would. Getting your energy up before a game isn't performance enhancing? Again, I disagree.

Along the lines of what you are saying...If a kicker eats a bowl of froot loops before the game and the sugar rush gets his energy up, are froot loops performance enhancing? What if a player is popping ginkgo biloba to improve his memory (memorizing the playbook)and concentration (catching passes, pass reads)? Is that performance enhancing? By your reasoning, Froot loops and ginkgo biloba should be banned as well.


To your other point:

I've read a number of people connected to baseball saying that the biggest performance enhancer in the major leagues was "greenies" or other amphetamines, because it helps you deal with the grind of a season. Don't people always also talk about the football season being a grind?

The reason to take amphetamines to deal with the long season is to mask pain. The problem with masking pain is your body can't detect it's own limitations, and this puts the player at a more extreme risk of severe injuries, even life threatening health issues.
While the uppers make you more alert and yadda yadda, over time your body builds up a tolerance to the drug. So you need more than last time and it just keeps increasing. Now you arent alert, now you are sluggish, now you are depressed, now you have health problems. You have an addiction. And the dominos keep falling. You do know amphetamines can be addictive right?

Amphetamines don't add muscle or speed. Sure they make you alert but that's about it. You believe that it makes a player do his job better because he is more alert and focused. So why ban it? Why not let every player use it because they would be better at their job?

The reason Adderall and other amphetamines are banned is because they are addictive and dangerous for athletes. This is why i said they are wrongly labeled as a PED and the NFL needs to revise their lists and define it better.

I'm not going to post anymore on this subject in the open forums. If you or anyone else would like to discuss this topic in private messages feel free to message me anytime.

Sounds good, I'd be happy to discuss it further with you in messages