RGIII and Out

Thats exactly what I said last night. Shanahan has to be the man and make that decision to pull Griffin.

people should remember how they reacted to Cutler 2 years ago. The response he received might have colored RG3's ttitude

Originally Posted by iwatt

people should remember how they reacted to Cutler 2 years ago. The response he received might have colored RG3's ttitude

Not to rehash this debate, but I think it was the optics of the whole Jay Cutler situation that did him in. He looked pretty healthy on the sidelines.

I don't think RGIII's attitude was colored, I just think he wanted to play at all costs. I don't think that mentality in a pro athlete will ever change.

Following that 2nd drive, he was looked at by Dr. Andrews. He was evidently cleared to go back into the game, whether by Andrews, or by Shanahan. This is mere speculation, but IF Dr. Andrews were to have told the team that Griffin shouldn't have gone back in, and Shanahan overruled him, then Andrews needs to resign as team physician immediately. I'd think he has enough clout in the medical community to not need that Redskins gig.

That said, unless Andrews states otherwise, we have to assume Griffin was cleared following the 2nd drive. I'd gather that adrenaline had a lot to do with him looking relatively comfortable throughout the remainder of the 1st half. But in the 2nd half, he looked completely different. I heard Ron Jaworski mention this morning that it was clear that Griffin was throwing off his front foot the entier 2nd half. He looked injured, and his play was clearly compromised, crystalized by that 8 yard run. Players have gutted games out before (I root for one that has done so, sometimes against better judgment, for much of his career). But when he's clearly hurting himself and the team, as he was, Shanahan certainly has the clout to jump in there and tell the kid he's done for the day. No one would have questioned his decision, nor RGIII's toughness at that point. Unfortunately, he continued to play, the worst case scenario happened, and the knee gave way.

This reminds me of the situation involving Dennis Dixon while he was still at Oregon. In 2007, Dixon was a front-runner for the Heisman. Oregon had 1 loss, and was still very much in the Pac-10 hunt, as well as possibly the national championship hunt. Dixon tore his ACL in a win over Arizona State.

Then, 12 days later, in a nationally televised Thursday game, Dixon was miraculously back on the field. He scored the 1st TD of the game on a 39 yard open-field run, hobbling badly through the 2nd half of that run.

That play was Dixon's last at Oregon. To this day, every time I see Mike Belotti on an ESPN telecast, I think of that play. It is the coaches job to save players from themselves, especially when a Torn ACL has already been the diagnosis. Belotti's selfish motivations on that night were embarrassing, and should have resulted in his immediate removal as the Oregon HC. As it turns out, he only stayed 1 more year.

This situation is different, in that it's the pros, and RGIII was not playing on a torn ACL. Unless he was. I'm curious as to what went on in that back room prior to him coming back out for their 3rd offensive drive, and if anyone knew at that point how severe his knee injury may actually have been.

I'm not assuming anything here, other than he was healthy enough to be cleared by Andrews. But remembering that Oregon game makes me at least wonder if something similar may have happened yesterday.

Being cleared by Andrews after the first awkward fall is a good point that I hope we get an answer to. I would like to know who technically has the say in Washington. My guess is it is Shanny, not even Andrews. And, yes, that means Andrews probably should not be involved at all.

I know we've had a little chatter on this in the forum, but I tend to agree with Rich. If I was Shanahan, I might have let RGIII play out the first half. In the second, though, I would hope I would notice how ineffective he was. He only completed five passes after his opening scoring drives. He couldn't run and the rest of the offense wasn't moving any more, either. You would think halftime would be the perfect time to adjust to Cousins in the lineup, but even still, a relief pitcher was needed by the mid-third.

Trumpet mentioned Dennis Dixon. My first thought, whenever this comes up, is the 2003 ALCS. I was living in Mass. at the time and Sox fans hit the roof after manager Grady Little (who had coached in Cleveland and I always thought was a good baseball man) left a struggling Pedro Martinez in after a visit to the mound in the 8th inning. Martinez gave up three runs in the eighth to tie the game, Aaron Boone won it in the 11th with a walk-off home run, and the rest, as they say, is history. Grady Little was fired and the Boston Red Sox went on to win two World Series with Terry Francona in 2004 and 2007.

Now, after the game, Little and Martinez said more or less the same thing as Shanahan and Griffin. Pedro Martinez told Little he could get out of the jam, and Little believed in his pitcher and that he'd earned the right to be out there. (In point of fact, I believed in the move at the time, too, because Pedro Martinez in his prime is still the greatest pitcher that I've ever seen. No debates.) This is more or less what Shanahan said about III. The neurotic Boston press went chicken-killer on Little and got him fired when the element of injury wasn't even in play. Football is a little different from baseball--you substitute for pitchers routinely, rarely for quarterbacks--but if you don't think baseball players are tough, you're kidding yourself. No one would have approved of Martinez saying, 'take me out,' and everyone expected Little to do it anyway. Or, at least, thought he should have after disaster struck.

More significantly, though, Little only risked that season's playoffs on Martinez's arm--and as I've said before, as good as he'd been for as long as he'd been, it's a bet I would have made too, even if my eyes told me he was tired. The Redskins on Sunday played a quarterback who was obviously ineffective for the lion's share of the game and who was clearly hurt. I don't know if he was evaluated and at half someone indicated there was no structural damage to knee. I'm not sure, but I have heard that ligament tears are not wear-and-tear injuries. Either way, as much as Washington gave up to get RGIII and as much as they report to like Cousins, you might think they'd have made a call to the bullpen a little bit earlier.

Point blank, James Andrews is hired to be your team physician specifically to prevent things like this from occurring. He's the best there ever was at what he does. If you're not going to take his advice, then why hire him in the first place?

Because of that, I'll assume Andrews signed off until I'm told otherwise. No matter how much of a "man" culture there is in the NFL, it's hard to believe someone like Shanahan would be stubborn enough to ignore the advice of Andrews. Maybe Griffin, who's main objective is to play, but it's Shanahan's job to be in constant communication with his team's doctor, especially when Griffin is in the type of compromised state he appeared to be in prior to his knee giving out in the 4th quarter.

Originally Posted by Trumpetbdw

Point blank, James Andrews is hired to be your team physician specifically to prevent things like this from occurring. He's the best there ever was at what he does. If you're not going to take his advice, then why hire him in the first place?

Because of that, I'll assume Andrews signed off until I'm told otherwise. No matter how much of a "man" culture there is in the NFL, it's hard to believe someone like Shanahan would be stubborn enough to ignore the advice of Andrews. Maybe Griffin, who's main objective is to play, but it's Shanahan's job to be in constant communication with his team's doctor, especially when Griffin is in the type of compromised state he appeared to be in prior to his knee giving out in the 4th quarter.

Can't disagree with a word of that.

Also, again, to get Griffin, Washington is still on the hook for their 2013 and 2014 first round picks. There is quite a bit more than yesterday's playoff game riding on the long-term viability of Griffin's knees.

Originally Posted by Trumpetbdw

Because of that, I'll assume Andrews signed off until I'm told otherwise. No matter how much of a "man" culture there is in the NFL, it's hard to believe someone like Shanahan would be stubborn enough to ignore the advice of Andrews. Maybe Griffin, who's main objective is to play, but it's Shanahan's job to be in constant communication with his team's doctor, especially when Griffin is in the type of compromised state he appeared to be in prior to his knee giving out in the 4th quarter.

Reading some of the stuff out there, I get the impression that Shannahan hasn't listened to Andrews before. This is all hearsay of course. Was Andrews consulted during half time? Given RG3 was wearing the race, specifically designed to support the LCL, and he defintely wasn't in there long enough to take it off, it's hard to see how much of an evaluation could be done in the shed.

I don't blame RG3. I brought up the CUtler issue because I'm always interested in how similar situations are judged differently.

Rich Eisen just tweeted:

Rich Eisen ‏@richeisen

I honestly don't understand the criticism of @RGIII. If Favre had done this, we'd (mostly) be lionizing him for his heart, guts, fortitude

There's alot that goes into this. Likebaility, reputation, misfortune, and good/ill will.

For good or bad, RG3 has lived all season with the "he might get hurt" label. When he got hurt, it served to validate this for many people.

My biggest problem is with the Shanny's. Whoever made him run those 8 yards where he was grimacing is an idiot. OK, the kid couldn't plant to throw. That was obvious by the end of the 1st half. So you run the ball and throw short stuff, or you put Cousins in. What you don't do is keep playing the read option, and the play action fake.

Originally Posted by iwatt

Reading some of the stuff out there, I get the impression that Shannahan hasn't listened to Andrews before. This is all hearsay of course. Was Andrews consulted during half time? Given RG3 was wearing the race, specifically designed to support the LCL, and he defintely wasn't in there long enough to take it off, it's hard to see how much of an evaluation could be done in the shed.

I don't blame RG3. I brought up the CUtler issue because I'm always interested in how similar situations are judged differently.

Rich Eisen just tweeted:

There's alot that goes into this. Likebaility, reputation, misfortune, and good/ill will.

For good or bad, RG3 has lived all season with the "he might get hurt" label. When he got hurt, it served to validate this for many people.

My biggest problem is with the Shanny's. Whoever made him run those 8 yards where he was grimacing is an idiot. OK, the kid couldn't plant to throw. That was obvious by the end of the 1st half. So you run the ball and throw short stuff, or you put Cousins in. What you don't do is keep playing the read option, and the play action fake.

Exactly. These are the same fools who would have criticized RGIII if he had taken himself out of the game, much like Cutler had to do. Fact is, this isnt on the player. We should want any player to have that type of toughness to try and go out there for the team, especially as a leader. Ray Lewis did it, London Fletcher has done it, Ben Roethlisberger has done it, Brett Favre, the list goes on and on. It's the coaches responsibility to show common sense. Especially when that coach is a 15+ year Head Coaching vet who has 2 Super Bowls to his name. He's got to be better than that.

Originally Posted by Trumpetbdw

Ray Lewis did it, London Fletcher has done it, Ben Roethlisberger has done it, Brett Favre, the list goes on and on.

Every single player has done it. We don't hear it every time though. The world is full of O Linemen playing on one leg, or concussed. Then you have the dichotomy of skill players (RBs, WRs and DBs), who are routinely pulled because if they aren't 100%, they are hurting the team.

QBs can try to play on one leg. Skill players can't. And because the game plan for RG3 made him a skill player at least 30% of the time, he should have either been pulled, or the game plan changed. Nobody questions RBs toughness, but when you see they can't cut or accelerate, you take them out.

On a happier note, anybody else looking forward to Russel Wilson blowing up Asante Samuel while elad blocking for Lynch

In all seriousness, that was dumb. One of the safeties could have blown him up but good. Still remember Cutler screwing up his hand in 2011 trying to tackle a DB.

These are the same fools who would have criticized RGIII if he had taken himself out of the game, much like Cutler had to do.

Small caveat. Cutler didn't take himself out of the game. He was taken out by a responsible coach and an attentive medical staff. He is as dumb as Favre and RG3 in that sense. It takes a special kind of insanity to be an elite athlete in any sport. One of the main components of that insanity is an incredible lack of self awareness and sense of mortality. People ridiculed Flacco and Eli for saying "I'm elite", but it's that attitude that has them were they are. Even Mark Sanchez believes he is good.

Originally Posted by iwatt

Small caveat. Cutler didn't take himself out of the game. He was taken out by a responsible coach and an attentive medical staff. He is as dumb as Favre and RG3 in that sense. It takes a special kind of insanity to be an elite athlete in any sport. One of the main components of that insanity is an incredible lack of self awareness and sense of mortality. People ridiculed Flacco and Eli for saying "I'm elite", but it's that attitude that has them were they are. Even Mark Sanchez believes he is good.

Yes, thank you. I meant to include the word "perceived" to have taken himself out, but was squeezing that thought in during my lunch break. And that's the best point. People have the tendency to overreact negatively to nearly every situation. We tend to be a very hypocritical society when it comes to analyzing our athletes.

So, that worst case scenario that could have been completely avoided:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/1...rgo-total-knee