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Thread: Eifert vs Vaccaro?

  1. #21
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    I agree with every bit of what you've said here trumpet. If vaccaro is off the board (which I suspect he'll be) this debate is moot. I love the potential eifert brings to the offense. Having said that, it doesn't address anything I replied to in the matter.

    You knew I'd be quite consternate on the matter, and you haven't addressed why I think vaccaro is the better selection in my reply. More praise for how eifert makes our offense hum won't get it done here. Were not about to go all saints, and ignore defense. Eifert would be the more productive player this year, I acquise that point. But the pick isn't about THIS year, its about the next 5.

    The team has tons of potential for this year, but it has just as many question marks. This isn't an all in for a final piece Lombardi year. Were past that stage. Were actually recovering from that stage. That doesn't mean we can't win it all, just simply we have too many question marks to be even slightly certain.

    Were entering a year where we're changing our starting rb, #2 wr, nt, rolb, #2 cb, and many on our o line are young and unproven. Might we contend for a sb? Sure, I have faith. Are we one guy away? Not even close.

    I'd rather stick to what we do, get the best ss by far in this class or next, hope the question marks play great, and snag a te in next years much better class, or later in this one. I'd rather put to bed our cap issues, and move past paying so much for aging safeties.

    We're more likely to contend for a Lombardi after we answer our question marks, and fix our cap issues created by trying to retain our core for the sb runs we made.

    I know I'll change my tone after vaccaro is gone, and we pick eifert. I'm forced to as a fan of the team. However, right now we're debating who's the better pick and why...
    My post here was simply referencing the knee injury to Heath Miller, which gave me another chance to point out why I want Eifert, and how it has almost nothing to do with Heath's injury.

    Your point on Vaccaro-

    No one will ever replace polamalu. He's a one of a kind player. That said I want to make sure our safety of the future gets a leg up, he might not if selected next year. I want him to learn under coach dad, be taught by coach lake, and watch what polamalu and Clark do. Lebeau may retire, lake may get an offer for promotion, and Clark and polamalu might be salary cap casualties next off season.

    The base of knowledge a player gets in our defense is paramount, and they won't get a better base than the one I described above. Given no safety is considered to be thought of considerably better, if at all than vaccaro next draft, what he could learn this year is tantamount to future success. All of our "teachers" are on short arcs with the team.

    Conversely the offense is still quite new given the time Ben missed, and was still hurt after. This offense doesn't require the time to grow to fill a role the defense does.

    I'd prefer to give the safety of the future adequate time under the "best growing conditions" possible, as opposed to grabbing a te in the first this year.should we reverse picking a s this year in the first and a te in the first next year. The te's performance next year vs this year wouldn't have as much as a delta as the safety would, if they both were pressed into full time starter duty , next year.
    I referenced the safety position in a previous post.

    I'm certainly not saying that we ignore the safety position. In fact, I wouldn't even have a problem if the Steelers spend 2 picks in the first half of the draft on safety. They are very different players, but I think they could make either Eric Reid or Shamarco Thomas work for their defense in round 2.

    As far as the player with the sneaky upside in this draft, and who may have the potential to give the Steelers the closest facsimile to what Polamalu brings them, I kind of like Earl Wolff in the middle rounds. He has good game tape, performed well during his all-star week, and has game-breaking ability with his speed, instincts, and quality hands.
    I don't want to ignore the position. I agree completely that it needs to be addressed this year. In fact, I said previously that I'd be fine with taking 2 of these guys in the first half of the draft. I just like the depth at the S position a lot better than I like the depth at TE. I'm not sure of what's available at TE next year, but I do know that Eifert is the exact type of TE that can become a difference-maker, in the Graham/Hernandez mold. Why gamble on next year, when we can grab that now, and still address our needs at S?

    Is Vaccaro the best safety available? Yes. Is it a slam dunk? No. You want a replacement for Polamalu, and I get that. But as we've both agreed, there is no true replacement for him. His replacement on defense is going to be a combo of a drafted guy and Cortez Allen. That can still be addressed in a very effective manner in round 2. The bust potential will certainly be there with whomever we take, but the same can be said for Vaccaro.

    In the end, I think Vaccaro is a more likely bust than Eifert. I also think Eifert has the greater upside in helping this team both now, and long term. We agree that the Steelers as of right now are not Super Bowl contenders. And we agree that they likely won't be a legit threat this year. There are too many problems for them to try and figure out. But Eifert is a solution to that problem now, and for the next 5-10 years. I don't think Ertz, Escobar, Kelce, or any other TE would become anything more than a JAG for us.

    Contrast that with safety where I do think Reid, Thomas, Wolff, etc would all have a chance to be a legit answer for us long term. And if we take one (or two), and they bust, which in my estimation is of equal likelihood to Vaccaro busting, it's not as crippling to have a bust as a 2nd round pick than as a 1st.

    In my view, Eifert has the greater current and long-term upside (in relation to helping our team), and a higher floor, i.e., a lesser chance of being a bust. Plus, the alternatives to Vaccaro in round 2 are nearly his equal in terms of long term potential, and can receive the exact same benefits of sitting and learning this year.

    Add in that I know you are letting your opinion that the Steelers shouldn't bring Troy back after this year skew your view on this a little bit. Personally, I think Troy is a member of this defense in 2014. I'm not sure how, but I think they're going to keep him around beyond this year. As you mentioned, it may come in the form of a restructuring in order to afford McClendon.

    Moreover, the Steelers have taken a Safety in the first round of the draft exactly once. In their history. It was clear in 2003 that Troy Polamalu was going to be a difference maker, and when he fell to #16, they made a move to get him. I don't see Vaccaro as that type of difference maker. Meanwhile, their long-term starting TEs almost always come from the 1st round. From Bennie Cunningham to Eric Green to Mark Bruener to Heath Miller.

    You'd be better with Vaccaro and Ertz/Escobar/Kelce/waiting till next year over Eifert and 1 or 2 of Reid/Thomas/Wolff?
    "I'd knock your brains out, then pick them up later."

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    Trumpet, I've enjoyed our back and forth but at this point I've got to call it quits. I can't continue arguing my point when every Steelers source that I trust believes we wouldn't select vaccaro over eifert, based on what I perceive to be inside info coming out of the south side. My opinion hasn't changed at all, but me arguing it when those "in the know" are saying different is silly.

    It was a fun debate buddy, when the choice was up in the air. Now that I've read so much that it isn't, not so much... You got me here trumpet.

    I know I mixed too much biz guy into my choice, added to the fact vaccaro is the only blue chip ss in either of the next 2 drafts. I really want rid of polamalus contract next year (eventhough I know he's "the guy", and accordingly will be here in 2014).

    Ultimately eifert does help us more this year, and in the NFL its about right now, we'll worry about next year when it happens. That said, I PRAY we don't pick a safety in the 2nd. Colbert is not so great in the 2nd, like at all (can't judge Adams or Gilbert yet). Grab us one in the 3rd please!!
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

  3. #23
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    Trumpet, I've enjoyed our back and forth but at this point I've got to call it quits. I can't continue arguing my point when every Steelers source that I trust believes we wouldn't select vaccaro over eifert, based on what I perceive to be inside info coming out of the south side. My opinion hasn't changed at all, but me arguing it when those "in the know" are saying different is silly.

    It was a fun debate buddy, when the choice was up in the air. Now that I've read so much that it isn't, not so much... You got me here trumpet.

    I know I mixed too much biz guy into my choice, added to the fact vaccaro is the only blue chip ss in either of the next 2 drafts. I really want rid of polamalus contract next year (eventhough I know he's "the guy", and accordingly will be here in 2014).

    Ultimately eifert does help us more this year, and in the NFL its about right now, we'll worry about next year when it happens. That said, I PRAY we don't pick a safety in the 2nd. Colbert is not so great in the 2nd, like at all (can't judge Adams or Gilbert yet). Grab us one in the 3rd please!!
    I hear you on the 2nd round. If I believed that Vaccaro was a significant cut above the rest, I'd probably agree with you. But honestly, I don't think there's that big of a drop off between he and some of the others.

    I also happen to think that if Vaccaro is still on the board, but Eifert is gone, we should consider trading down. SF may be willing to move up for either a S or a G. However, if the right deal isn't there, then I'd take Vaccaro over Cooper (who is increasingly likely to not be there), Jarvis, or anyone else that may fall.

    And to be fair, when I look at lists of team needs, neither S nor TE are usually at the top of the list. I've also not seen the "in the know" opinion on the matter, although I did see a recent chat with Bouchette where it seemed that he dismissed the possibility of selecting Eifert. I've also seen a bunch of people thinking Pittsburgh focuses on a pass rusher, WR, or possibly a RB.

    We now have less than a week to prepare our statements for when the Steelers end up (maddeningly) going with Jarvis Jones. I think I'll go with the "he could be the next Terrell Suggs" card. Maybe you can play the "as long as it's not another DL, I'm happy" card. Within 2 weeks, I bet we'd talk ourselves into him breaking the single-season sack record by his 3rd season.
    "I'd knock your brains out, then pick them up later."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetbdw View Post
    I hear you on the 2nd round. If I believed that Vaccaro was a significant cut above the rest, I'd probably agree with you. But honestly, I don't think there's that big of a drop off between he and some of the others.

    I also happen to think that if Vaccaro is still on the board, but Eifert is gone, we should consider trading down. SF may be willing to move up for either a S or a G. However, if the right deal isn't there, then I'd take Vaccaro over Cooper (who is increasingly likely to not be there), Jarvis, or anyone else that may fall.

    And to be fair, when I look at lists of team needs, neither S nor TE are usually at the top of the list. I've also not seen the "in the know" opinion on the matter, although I did see a recent chat with Bouchette where it seemed that he dismissed the possibility of selecting Eifert. I've also seen a bunch of people thinking Pittsburgh focuses on a pass rusher, WR, or possibly a RB.

    We now have less than a week to prepare our statements for when the Steelers end up (maddeningly) going with Jarvis Jones. I think I'll go with the "he could be the next Terrell Suggs" card. Maybe you can play the "as long as it's not another DL, I'm happy" card. Within 2 weeks, I bet we'd talk ourselves into him breaking the single-season sack record by his 3rd season.
    Of course I completely disagree with trading down if vaccaro is there and eifert isn't, for the obvious reason, I would love to snag vaccaro. And the more obvious one, very few will be looking to trade up in this draft. Perhaps if a guy they love falls, but I almost think our pick is too early for that trade up, unless its Minnesota or perhaps Sf because they have so many picks. Sf will be doing much wheeling and dealing this draft.

    I think they have 13 picks, and 13 picks would be too many wasted given the state of their roster. I can't see them wanting to draft more than 8 max. They're going to package picks to move up to get a guy they love, or trade them for picks in future years.

    You must have read the same chat with bouchette that I read, and saw this:

    "Wild Bill: Hello Ed. With all theseeming needs theSteelers have, will the first round pick at leastbe "best athlete available"?

    Ed Bouchette: They might stretch that a littleto be the best outsidelinebacker available.

    DormontyDawson: Ed: It's axiomaticto me thatSteelers will take Tyler Eifert. Every time Heath Miller catchesa pass, the crowd yells, "Heeeeath!" Miller cannot play forever, sadly. Who better to replace him than a guythe crowd will serenadewith, "Eeeeeeeeif!"? My logic is sound, yes?

    Ed Bouchette: It's possibletheycould draft him. It's possible you could hear that from the crowd. What'snotpossible is that Eifertwill not help their passrush."

    Then later in the chat when asked about how Jones would likely sit for a year, ed fired back about how there was no reason to have faith in Worilds.

    Ed is generally cranky during these chats and his slogs, where he mixes what he knows with what he thinks. It's nearly impossible to know which way those comments were shaded from what HE said. Ed seems quite insistent on us taking a rush lb in the first, and Jones seems to be the top name still most likely available when we pick..

    I'm ok with a olb with our 1.17, just not sure about Jones. We already have one lazy olb, not sure how getting another helps. Not sure the locker room can influence his decisions, they didn't for Woodley last year (although Woodley got his big payday already). Most of our defense is populated with athletic super freaks that live in the gym. Ike Taylor works out like a mad man year round, either at the south side complex or with Shaw in Florida. Guy only takes 2 weeks off from working out right after the season ends. Clark works out a slight notch below ike.. McClendon and hood are super hardcore gym rats. The 2 strongest guys on the team (too bad hood's technique sucks, so we never see that strength on the field), literally live in the gym. McClendon has gained 50lbs of muscle in 4 years. Harrison was right there with them before he left. Then we have our ultra super freaks of athleticism, Timmons and polamalu.

    These guys couldn't motivate Woodley to follow form, so I've no faith they get Jones to do so. If he doesn't, he's a wasted pick. He's got to get significantly stronger to play rolb for us. And ed is questioning Worilds ability to perform the position? Worilds is more athletic, and knows the scheme.

    If we're picking an olb, I want an athletic freak like Jordan, Ansah, or mingo. 3 guys who won't be there.

    I will play the "we didn't pick a dl" card, but I won't proclaim anything about Jones until I see him do it.
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

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    The bouchette chat is what put me on high alert vaccaro wasn't likely to happen, then the dulac chat on ppg+ slammed the door. To give some background for the non Steelers guys reading this, bouchette is the 800lb gorilla with all the connections but he's quite opinionated. On anything that's not printed in the paper, you have to wade through his grouchy opinions to get to the facts, and he's almost always cryptic in what he says that points to fact.

    Dulac is more even keeled in what he says on the pay site, and hes the assigned draft guy. What he says and how he says it tells me he's more plugged into the scout side. In dulac's chat the other day, he was quite effusive about eifert, and said something quite telling about how the Steelers scouts may have the board pegged.

    When asked if Jones, vaccaro, and Patterson were all available who would they pick. Immediately jumped to Patterson, stating the Steelers didn't consider him raw. He stated it quite declaratively. Tells me we're looking for a playmaker on offense. Looking back on his prior statement about eifert, and effusive with praise he was, and it just seems like the cat swallowed the canary.

    Reading the entire chat, and reading the subtle tea leaves, we covet eifert. Dulac tip toed around out right saying it, but by doing so told me what I needed to know. Dulac has inside info I don't have, and he's very credible. It's why I quit the debate with trumpet. As a fan I prefer vaccaro, but those who are making those decisions covet eifert. I can't debate that.
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    The bouchette chat is what put me on high alert vaccaro wasn't likely to happen, then the dulac chat on ppg+ slammed the door. To give some background for the non Steelers guys reading this, bouchette is the 800lb gorilla with all the connections but he's quite opinionated. On anything that's not printed in the paper, you have to wade through his grouchy opinions to get to the facts, and he's almost always cryptic in what he says that points to fact.

    Dulac is more even keeled in what he says on the pay site, and hes the assigned draft guy. What he says and how he says it tells me he's more plugged into the scout side. In dulac's chat the other day, he was quite effusive about eifert, and said something quite telling about how the Steelers scouts may have the board pegged.

    When asked if Jones, vaccaro, and Patterson were all available who would they pick. Immediately jumped to Patterson, stating the Steelers didn't consider him raw. He stated it quite declaratively. Tells me we're looking for a playmaker on offense. Looking back on his prior statement about eifert, and effusive with praise he was, and it just seems like the cat swallowed the canary.

    Reading the entire chat, and reading the subtle tea leaves, we covet eifert. Dulac tip toed around out right saying it, but by doing so told me what I needed to know. Dulac has inside info I don't have, and he's very credible. It's why I quit the debate with trumpet. As a fan I prefer vaccaro, but those who are making those decisions covet eifert. I can't debate that.
    Interesting. I've not seen the Dulac chat, so I certainly hope the tea leaves are correct. The Bouchette chat that I saw I believe is different (perhaps beginning of April) but had the exact same tone and opinions. He's clearly on the side of us taking a pass rusher, but it seems he has a strong indication that won't happen.

    Wouldn't you be cranky if you were dealing with many of those Steeler fans too?

    I hope Patterson doesn't happen. If Eifert is gone, and the in house choices are Patterson or Jones, I'd rather Jones, then a combo of WR/RB/S in rd 2 and 3. I really hope we don't ignore safety early. Vaccaro should be our #1 option after Eifert, but it doesnt seem thats the case. Rd 2 makes the most sense due to the depth, and hopefully that's the reason behind the apparent dismissal of Vaccaro.

    If we do go WR early, the guy I'm really starting to like is DeAndre Hopkins. Maybe this hotel incident causes him to fall, but he seems like he'd be an excellent physical compliment to Brown.
    "I'd knock your brains out, then pick them up later."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetbdw View Post
    Interesting. I've not seen the Dulac chat, so I certainly hope the tea leaves are correct. The Bouchette chat that I saw I believe is different (perhaps beginning of April) but had the exact same tone and opinions. He's clearly on the side of us taking a pass rusher, but it seems he has a strong indication that won't happen.

    Wouldn't you be cranky if you were dealing with many of those Steeler fans too?

    I hope Patterson doesn't happen. If Eifert is gone, and the in house choices are Patterson or Jones, I'd rather Jones, then a combo of WR/RB/S in rd 2 and 3. I really hope we don't ignore safety early. Vaccaro should be our #1 option after Eifert, but it doesnt seem thats the case. Rd 2 makes the most sense due to the depth, and hopefully that's the reason behind the apparent dismissal of Vaccaro.

    If we do go WR early, the guy I'm really starting to like is DeAndre Hopkins. Maybe this hotel incident causes him to fall, but he seems like he'd be an excellent physical compliment to Brown.
    I want nothing to do with a wr in the first round, and I'm not real giddy about one in the 2nd either. Tomlin and Colbert have been hot and cold in the draft a lot, but one area of consistency and strength is scouting wr's and getting really good ones in the 3rd or later. Whoever we add at wr, and I suspect we add two (to replace Sanders when he leaves via fa next year), with one being a bigger deep threat. I'd really like that guy to be Bailey from wvu in the 3rd, with eifert in the 1st, and the best rated safety or pass rusher on our board in the 2nd.
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    I want nothing to do with a wr in the first round, and I'm not real giddy about one in the 2nd either. Tomlin and Colbert have been hot and cold in the draft a lot, but one area of consistency and strength is scouting wr's and getting really good ones in the 3rd or later. Whoever we add at wr, and I suspect we add two (to replace Sanders when he leaves via fa next year), with one being a bigger deep threat. I'd really like that guy to be Bailey from wvu in the 3rd, with eifert in the 1st, and the best rated safety or pass rusher on our board in the 2nd.

    I hope you're right as Cordaralle Patterson would be really good in your system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bengals1181 View Post
    I hope you're right as Cordaralle Patterson would be really good in your system.
    The kid has the tools to be successful in our system, but he's got his warts too. He's a body catcher who drops a lot of balls and his ability to get off a jam is poor. He's also just a so-so route runner. That said his athleticism is incredible, and he makes plays with the ball.in his hands. However this draft is quite deep with wide receivers. It's not with tight ends, so if its between Patterson and eifert, I'm 1000% eifert. He's one of the two best tight ends of this class or next, and we need a successor to heath in one of them.

    I don't value the wr position all that highly. IMO its the most over valued position in pro football. Patterson isn't likely to be the kind of player green, Megatron, Johnson, fitz, or Julio Jones is. Those kind of guys are worthy of a 1st to me.
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bengals1181 View Post
    I hope you're right as Cordaralle Patterson would be really good in your system.
    If I thought Patterson was a can't miss prospect, I'd agree with you. His skill set lines up with something we'd desire, and I do think they have their eye on him.

    But I'm with mike. If the Steelers go offense with their first pick, the only acceptable choice in my mind is Eifert. If he's off the board, the pick has to be defense.

    The only way I sign off on a WR like Hopkins or Woods in round 2 would be if they lose out on Eifert, grab either a pass-rusher or DB in round 1, and are able to still grab a potential starting RB in round 3/4. Otherwise, WR isn't a position that needs to be addressed prior to round 3/4, as mike mentioned. And if Eifert does become a Steeler, there's suddenly no need to address WR until late.

    Ideally, in rounds 1-4, they're coming away with a ball-catcher, a runner, a pass-rusher, and a DB.

    I'm starting to say DB instead of S for one reason, and it's a question I want to ask mike. Do you think it's possible the Steelers could decide to transition Cortez Allen to safety? If so, does a guy like D.J. Hayden jump onto the Steelers radar as early as round 1, with a very outside chance he could slip into their spot in round 2? Then, even if they were to grab someone like Hayden, they could still jump on a safety later on. I've mentioned Shamarko Thomas and Earl Wolff as being a couple of possibilities. Wolff in particular seems like a guy with the talent to become a starter within the next couple of years, and yet may be available in round 4 or 5.

    Based on the tea leaves, it's really starting to feel like the Steelers are going to grab Eifert or Patterson, if either are still on the board. If not, I'd hope they'd consider a trade down. While there's not likely to be much action at the top of the draft involving trades, I think the Steelers spot is right around the area where the draft could start to see a lot of action, with multiple teams (most likely being SF) looking to move into the middle of the first round.
    "I'd knock your brains out, then pick them up later."

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