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Thread: QB Talk

  1. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by JBandJoeyV View Post
    You don’t think a deshaun Watson or a Pat Mahomes couldn’t have won a super bowl with our 2011-2015 core?
    I don't think we get "the core" if we drafted a QB at #4. Part of what people overlook, IMO, is that avoiding the temptation to reach for a QB in 2011 at #4 and choosing to "have a go" with a less superior QB is what enabled them to add to and build a core of talent that made success possible. Their failure from that point was 3-fold:

    1. Didn't bring in a new head coach to energize and re-direct "the core"
    2. Made next to zero effort towards retaining the 4 best players on offense not named AJ Green (Whit, Jones, Zietler, Sanu)
    3. Didn't draft a high upside QB at any point who might have been able to take the reigns when Andy's poor performances started to drain what was left of "the core."

    I 100% agree that if you drop Mahomes or Watson into the 2015 roster, its perennial superbowl contention for us from that point on.

  2. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrlnutz View Post
    I don't think we get "the core" if we drafted a QB at #4. Part of what people overlook, IMO, is that avoiding the temptation to reach for a QB in 2011 at #4 and choosing to "have a go" with a less superior QB is what enabled them to add to and build a core of talent that made success possible. Their failure from that point was 3-fold:

    1. Didn't bring in a new head coach to energize and re-direct "the core"
    2. Made next to zero effort towards retaining the 4 best players on offense not named AJ Green (Whit, Jones, Zietler, Sanu)
    3. Didn't draft a high upside QB at any point who might have been able to take the reigns when Andy's poor performances started to drain what was left of "the core."

    I 100% agree that if you drop Mahomes or Watson into the 2015 roster, its perennial superbowl contention for us from that point on.
    I’m actually really glad you brought up the 2011 draft. We drafted AJ at 4 and Andy in the second round.

    Just imagine for a second that we drafted AJ at 4 and didn’t take Andy at 34 but instead took BPA at a different position. And then started 2011 with someone bad at QB in 2011 and **** the bed.

    With the first pick in the 2012 draft the bengals select...Andrew Luck.

    Just saying if we are going to use 2011 as an example I think it is a great example of my “take chase, tank, and draft Lawrence/Fields in 2021” argument.

  3. Apart from the entire Marvin problem, I think the real FO failure from the 2015 run is letting the O-line fall apart. Zeitler leaving was semi-defensible at least since he got massively overpaid and the team had a track record of getting good guard play out of new/young guys. But the rest of the moves were indefensible. Letting Whit go after 2 years of proof that Ogbuehi wasn't any kind of answer. Having no discernible plan at RT. Completely and totally whiffing on the Ogbuehi and Fisher picks. Letting Hopkins languish on the bench forever while lesser players got rocked at C. Making no real effort to improve the line in spite of its obvious decline. It was just awful.
    ORANGE n BLACK

  4. Quote Originally Posted by JBandJoeyV View Post
    I’m actually really glad you brought up the 2011 draft. We drafted AJ at 4 and Andy in the second round.

    Just imagine for a second that we drafted AJ at 4 and didn’t take Andy at 34 but instead took BPA at a different position. And then started 2011 with someone bad at QB in 2011 and **** the bed.

    With the first pick in the 2012 draft the bengals select...Andrew Luck.

    Just saying if we are going to use 2011 as an example I think it is a great example of my “take chase, tank, and draft Lawrence/Fields in 2021” argument.
    That 2011 team was nowhere near bad enough to go 2-14 or 1-15 even with a rando at QB. Hell, Gradkowski went out and won Game 1 that year. Don't think this really applies or proves the theory.
    ORANGE n BLACK

  5. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by JBandJoeyV View Post
    I’m actually really glad you brought up the 2011 draft. We drafted AJ at 4 and Andy in the second round.

    Just imagine for a second that we drafted AJ at 4 and didn’t take Andy at 34 but instead took BPA at a different position. And then started 2011 with someone bad at QB in 2011 and **** the bed.

    With the first pick in the 2012 draft the bengals select...Andrew Luck.

    Just saying if we are going to use 2011 as an example I think it is a great example of my “take chase, tank, and draft Lawrence/Fields in 2021” argument.
    That only works for me if you think Lawrence or Fields are better than Tua and Burrow. I want the best QB period. Are Lawrence/Fields really in the Luck class of being a sure thing this far out from their draft?

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Squirrlnutz View Post
    I think its ridiculous that people shlt on playoff appearances and write them off as if "oh that's easy." I don't understand how anyone can simultaneously believe "this guy is good enough to win 10.5 games, but definitely-100%-never-in-a-million-years good enough to win a single playoff game." Its very clear to any objective observer that the entire team shlt the bed in big spots and I will continue to believe that Marvin should have been removed after '07, '10, '13, and '16 more so than any individual position needed to be upgraded. I can only assume that anger at our "mediocrity" comes from not winning a Superbowl right? If we had been 1-5 in the playoffs during Andy's tenure are we backing off calling the run mediocre? 2-5? 3-5? Someone please chime in on this as I'm genuinely curious.

    Going back through the year 2000 the only Superbowl winners drafted #1 overall are named Manning. Otherwise you've got: undrafted, #6, #199(x6), #227, #11(x2), #33, #24, #18, #75, #88 as the draft positions of the winning QBs. I think most people are in agreement (and this is a thought that Goodberry has promoted too) that this organization is actually quite good at identifying QB talent.

    Now, back to my post to which you originally commented on:


    If Finley gets us to 3 wins and subsequently the #3-5 pick, are people on this board STILL OF THE FRAME OF MIND that they need to take Herbert/Eason/Fromm/Love for the reason you stated above; we need a dynamic QB?

    I vote an enthusiastic "NO." Andy Dalton as a 2nd round pick had 5 straight opportunities to have postseason success. Here is a list of #1 overall QBs who despite all possessing superior talent to Andy never made 5 consecutive playoff berths, let alone out of the gate: M. Vick ('01), D. Carr ('02), C. Palmer ('03), E. Manning ('04), A. Smith ('05), J. Russel ('07), M. Stafford ('09), S. Bradford ('10), C. Newton ('11), A. Luck ('12).

    Fvck the coin flip "we need to take a QB because you have to get a QB" bullshlt. This organization already proved that you don't need to take the 3rd best guy to have a shot at post-season success. If we find ourselves in that spot then give me the best player + a QB 20-30 picks later 100 out of 100 times. In general I still believe Tua and Burrow are AT BEST a 50/50 proposition that could turn out to be Russell or Bradford...and I'm even more certain that panic-selecting the 3d best guy is far more likely to land us a Josh Freeman/Blaine Gabbert/Ryan Tannehil/Johnny Manziel type of player.
    Not going to go line-by-line through your dissertation here but just want to respond with a few points

    1.) Mediocrity: Yes a couple key wins would have pulled us above the "mediocre threshold." All else the same, a single appearance in the AFC championship mixed in with the first round exits would paint that era in a drastically different color. Some indication that the team had a possibility of succeeding, rather than rolling over and dying to less-than-stellar competition time and time again. Ironically, the closest they ever looked to being that team was the single time Andy wasn't playing. That doesn't indicate that he was a negative, merely that he wasn't a difference maker in that regard.

    2.) Drafting a QB: If you can give me a statistical argument for a better position to be in when trying to find a franchise QB then as high as possible in the 1st round, i'm all ears.

    3.) If Finely can pull three wins out of this dumpster fire, and look pretty damn convincing in the process, sure i'd be open to going the route you're advocating. I think my bar is likely set much higher than yours, in that I don't want any doubt. 3 ugly wins with more INTs than TDs isn't going to cut it.

    At the end of the day, I'm exhausted from years of "maybe this time it'll be different" and what something actually tangibly different. I think its obvious to anyone who's paid attention that we either needed a QB better than Andy, or a coach better than Marvin, if not both, to go beyond what I'm calling mediocre. Its not easy to do either, but at this point in time I'd be more inclined to take a stab at the QB route via the draft, where the playing field is level for all teams.

  7. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorclaws View Post
    That only works for me if you think Lawrence or Fields are better than Tua and Burrow. I want the best QB period. Are Lawrence/Fields really in the Luck class of being a sure thing this far out from their draft?
    I think so personally. I’m not going to lie and say I’ve studied them all thoroughly though.

  8. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange n Black View Post
    That 2011 team was nowhere near bad enough to go 2-14 or 1-15 even with a rando at QB. Hell, Gradkowski went out and won Game 1 that year. Don't think this really applies or proves the theory.
    Maybe not. But I think this offseason you could make this team a 1-2 win team next year while still adding young talent to help in 2021 and beyond while securing a top 2 pick next year.

  9. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post

    Not going to go line-by-line through your dissertation here but just want to respond with a few points

    1.) Mediocrity: Yes a couple key wins would have pulled us above the "mediocre threshold." All else the same, a single appearance in the AFC championship mixed in with the first round exits would paint that era in a drastically different color. Some indication that the team had a possibility of succeeding, rather than rolling over and dying to less-than-stellar competition time and time again. Ironically, the closest they ever looked to being that team was the single time Andy wasn't playing. That doesn't indicate that he was a negative, merely that he wasn't a difference maker in that regard.

    2.) Drafting a QB: If you can give me a statistical argument for a better position to be in when trying to find a franchise QB then as high as possible in the 1st round, i'm all ears.

    3.) If Finely can pull three wins out of this dumpster fire, and look pretty damn convincing in the process, sure i'd be open to going the route you're advocating. I think my bar is likely set much higher than yours, in that I don't want any doubt. 3 ugly wins with more INTs than TDs isn't going to cut it.

    At the end of the day, I'm exhausted from years of "maybe this time it'll be different" and what something actually tangibly different. I think its obvious to anyone who's paid attention that we either needed a QB better than Andy, or a coach better than Marvin, if not both, to go beyond what I'm calling mediocre. Its not easy to do either, but at this point in time I'd be more inclined to take a stab at the QB route via the draft, where the playing field is level for all teams.
    I'm on report writing duty these days so I've had a BUNCH of time in front of the computer lately.

    Of course we are going to have to draft a QB who gives us a better chance at winning than Andy did. Just saying there is merit to the idea that they can do that successfully outside of the top 2 should we find ourselves there via Finley dragging this corpse team to 2-3 wins or Chase Young and Finley dragging them to 5 wins next year.

  10. #240
    the next 4 weeks should be very interesting in the Tua vs Burrow race. Really interested in watching Tua vs Auburn. Rivalry game vs a rival with a very good defense.

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