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Thread: Rg3

  1. #41
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkocs6 View Post
    No, no, no, no, no, no, noooooooooo.



    This is more or less the template I'd like to use, but I'm not keen on Flynn if the Packers franchise him and attempt to trade him. We need all the high picks we can get. I would take Blackmon at #4, provided he's there, and draft go after the three needs you suggested with our first three rounds' picks.
    Taking a wr high in the draft is useless, unless you have the franchise passer to throw him the rock. Plenty of talent in later rounds. Better to take a bedrock position that high. Unless you think blackmon is the next megatron. A receiver will never be better than the guy throwing him the ball.

    As far as Rg goes, he's a more sophisticated passer than vick out of college. Can't wait for his pro day to see him throw what the pro coaches want. He won't throw at the combine if his agent has any say in the matter. As far as his acclimation to the pros, it seems everyone is sticking to the age old views. It won't take as long as many think. The NFL is a passing league and utilizes tons of spread concepts. Newton went from having plays called by number and a picture held up on the sidelines. If he can make the transition that easily to break every record he did, it shows the systems aren't as far apart as in prior years...
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

  2. #42
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by KabaModernFan View Post
    Similarities sure, the basic scheme is about the same. But we have no real way to gauge the respective simplicity or intricacies of each system.
    But we do kaba. Watch the gruden convo with newton before last season. Watch auburns games. Newton ran the spread in its simplest terms in college. Auburn holds up a poster board with a picture on it on the sidelines, then a number is called over the headset. Doesn't get any more simple than that. Like ordering Chinese. I'd like c12, general tso's chicken with fried rice and an egg roll. And look how quickly he acclimated!! The scheme concepts aren't as foreign as they once were .. the media and the fans have kept this ball rolling. It's a passing league that embraces the spread concept. Hell Pittsburgh is closer to being a spread offense, than our traditional power run offense. If we changed, it speaks volumes about the league wide shift..
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

  3. #43
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    Taking a wr high in the draft is useless, unless you have the franchise passer to throw him the rock. Plenty of talent in later rounds. Better to take a bedrock position that high. Unless you think blackmon is the next megatron. A receiver will never be better than the guy throwing him the ball.
    I understand your point, but here is why I disagree in this particular case. If you watch the Browns closely and often (I assume you do not watch them any more than you have to, for which I don't blame you), you'll notice that our wide receivers can't get open against press coverage to save their souls. The Browns' passing game has gone through the tight ends and the backs since they traded Edwards in 2009 because none of their receivers can get open consistently. The lone exception to this has been Greg Little, which is a very recent development and who is a big guy and is learning to use his body to play the position, but he's still very young and this is only his second year as a receiver (he played RB in high school, was converted to WR in college, and sat out a year with a suspension, if you recall). All that said, I think Blackmon is an exceptional talent at wide receiver and will immediately draw double coverage on this team; I think he can beat it, too, but I think this will open up the rest of the offense. I agree that you can find talented playmakers outside the first round, but you need to get lucky--in my view, Blackmon presents an opportunity to improve production at every level on a woefully unproductive unit. You might make the same argument about Griffin, which I'll take on next.

    I think there are a couple key differences between Griffin and Newton, some of which have been alluded to already. One obvious one is size and the other is the people around him. Griffin's line would be pretty decent in Cleveland (provided we clean up RT, we should have one of the more solid lines in the league with Thomas, Steinbach back from injury, Mack, Pinkston, and a new RT), but he wouldn't have anything close to Steve Smith. Perhaps in free agency they could add Robert Meachem, but convincing players with options to come to Cleveland is not easy. Finally, I would like to point out that Newton's offense in Carolina was Rob Chudzinski's, the former coordinator in Cleveland who has always relied on a vertical passing game, which is very different from the coordinator likely to be hired in Cleveland next season. This group is committed to the west coast--Holmgren probably is the closest link to Bill Walsh still in football--and Griffin didn't run anything like that at Baylor. So, unless Griffin grows four inches, we get a top-flight receiver, and ditch the offensive system we're using, I don't really see how Griffin-in-Cleveland and Newton-in-Carolina are comparable just yet.

    This is why I think, if your goal with your first rounder is to improve the offense as a whole, you pick Blackmon over Griffin. I think you could bring in Flynn to challenge McCoy (or someone else, I suppose), but I'd like to see them bring in a playmaker, whether on offense or defense, and I vehemently oppose the idea of moving up from #4 or giving away future #1s or #2s in order to Griffin or Flynn. I'd be very happy with Blackmon or with a good corner (like Claiborne or Kirkpatrick) or with a good end (Coples, potentially, I guess). I'd even be okay with Griffin if he could be had in our current spot, I suppose, but indications are he won't fall to that place and frankly, it's never really been Holmgren's style to draft a first-round quarterback. I'd like to see them mostly add speed this draft (seriously, I think we might have the slowest defense in the NFL), at LB, CB, DE, and make finding an outside receiving option and a competent right tackle a priority. I get where you're coming from, but given the particular situation of the Browns, I don't think a pick like Griffin is the right one. You may correct that receivers won't be better than their quarterbacks, but it can work the other way, too, and I'm not convinced (yet, anyway, I guess) that RGIII is a once-in-a-lifetime talent I can't pass up at #4 (even though it's doubtful he'll be there in the first place), and I definitely don't want to move to take him.
    @kocsan

  4. #44
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkocs6 View Post
    I understand your point, but here is why I disagree in this particular case. If you watch the Browns closely and often (I assume you do not watch them any more than you have to, for which I don't blame you), you'll notice that our wide receivers can't get open against press coverage to save their souls. The Browns' passing game has gone through the tight ends and the backs since they traded Edwards in 2009 because none of their receivers can get open consistently. The lone exception to this has been Greg Little, which is a very recent development and who is a big guy and is learning to use his body to play the position, but he's still very young and this is only his second year as a receiver (he played RB in high school, was converted to WR in college, and sat out a year with a suspension, if you recall). All that said, I think Blackmon is an exceptional talent at wide receiver and will immediately draw double coverage on this team; I think he can beat it, too, but I think this will open up the rest of the offense. I agree that you can find talented playmakers outside the first round, but you need to get lucky--in my view, Blackmon presents an opportunity to improve production at every level on a woefully unproductive unit. You might make the same argument about Griffin, which I'll take on next.

    I think there are a couple key differences between Griffin and Newton, some of which have been alluded to already. One obvious one is size and the other is the people around him. Griffin's line would be pretty decent in Cleveland (provided we clean up RT, we should have one of the more solid lines in the league with Thomas, Steinbach back from injury, Mack, Pinkston, and a new RT), but he wouldn't have anything close to Steve Smith. Perhaps in free agency they could add Robert Meachem, but convincing players with options to come to Cleveland is not easy. Finally, I would like to point out that Newton's offense in Carolina was Rob Chudzinski's, the former coordinator in Cleveland who has always relied on a vertical passing game, which is very different from the coordinator likely to be hired in Cleveland next season. This group is committed to the west coast--Holmgren probably is the closest link to Bill Walsh still in football--and Griffin didn't run anything like that at Baylor. So, unless Griffin grows four inches, we get a top-flight receiver, and ditch the offensive system we're using, I don't really see how Griffin-in-Cleveland and Newton-in-Carolina are comparable just yet.

    This is why I think, if your goal with your first rounder is to improve the offense as a whole, you pick Blackmon over Griffin. I think you could bring in Flynn to challenge McCoy (or someone else, I suppose), but I'd like to see them bring in a playmaker, whether on offense or defense, and I vehemently oppose the idea of moving up from #4 or giving away future #1s or #2s in order to Griffin or Flynn. I'd be very happy with Blackmon or with a good corner (like Claiborne or Kirkpatrick) or with a good end (Coples, potentially, I guess). I'd even be okay with Griffin if he could be had in our current spot, I suppose, but indications are he won't fall to that place and frankly, it's never really been Holmgren's style to draft a first-round quarterback. I'd like to see them mostly add speed this draft (seriously, I think we might have the slowest defense in the NFL), at LB, CB, DE, and make finding an outside receiving option and a competent right tackle a priority. I get where you're coming from, but given the particular situation of the Browns, I don't think a pick like Griffin is the right one. You may correct that receivers won't be better than their quarterbacks, but it can work the other way, too, and I'm not convinced (yet, anyway, I guess) that RGIII is a once-in-a-lifetime talent I can't pass up at #4 (even though it's doubtful he'll be there in the first place), and I definitely don't want to move to take him.
    Don't take me the wrong way. Rg isn't the solution. Neither is blackmon. This team needs much more than that to be relevant. This rebuild is in the infancy stages. Too many project picks as though its close to being able to compete. The house of sadness garnered 6 divisional losses. This team is quite far from competing in perhaps the best division in football. Sorry but a receiver is a wasted pick, sans a credible qb. Mccoy isn't that guy. He's never beaten a divisional opponent. Rg prob wouldn't either, given this roster. Until the browns can win a divison game, anything said otherwise is fodder. It's been years since they have....
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

  5. #45
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    Don't take me the wrong way. Rg isn't the solution. Neither is blackmon. This team needs much more than that to be relevant. This rebuild is in the infancy stages. Too many project picks as though its close to being able to compete. The house of sadness garnered 6 divisional losses. This team is quite far from competing in perhaps the best division in football. Sorry but a receiver is a wasted pick, sans a credible qb. Mccoy isn't that guy. He's never beaten a divisional opponent. Rg prob wouldn't either, given this roster. Until the browns can win a divison game, anything said otherwise is fodder. It's been years since they have....
    To be fair, they did win at least one division game in '08, '09, and '10. In general, though, you're right, and no one player is the difference between the playoffs and not, which is why I think you draft the best player available who can contribute immediately, whether that's Blackmon, Coples, Claiborne, Kirkpatrick, or someone else. In any event, you're drafting a long-term starter and improving the team.
    @kocsan

  6. #46
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    Newton went from having plays called by number and a picture held up on the sidelines. If he can make the transition that easily to break every record he did, it shows the systems aren't as far apart as in prior years...
    I would suggest it shows that Newton is pretty exceptional.

  7. #47
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesteelnation1 View Post
    Watch the gruden convo with newton before last season.
    I can't believe anyone is still taking that show seriously. Count the number of words spoken by Gruden versus Newton. It was a a showboat performance by Gruden at the expense of Newton. We learned nothing -- nothing -- about Newton from that ridiculous show. What we learned about Gruden is that he's an asshat.

  8. #48
    RG3 showed up at the combine a surprising 6'2"

  9. #49
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bengals1181 View Post
    RG3 showed up at the combine a surprising 6'2"
    It shows alot about our expectations for the truth when RGIII has been listed at 6'2" all along, and yet was measured as a "surprising" 6'2" at the combine.

    Dude is going to be a stud, and these measurements confirm that he has NFL size to go with his NFL arm and NFL accuracy. It may not be a wise move, but by draft day, I think I'll end up talking myself into him over Luck. I think both are safe, and while Luck may be the safe, very good pocket QB with Drew Bledsoe as his apparent downside, RGIII has an upside that may not be matched. We're talking about the potential for Michael Vick athleticism with much better size, much better decision-making, and much better accuracy. St. Louis would be foolish not to trade out of the #2 spot and take the king's ransom they'll get from a team that is drooling over RGIII. Forget about Flynn or Manning, this is a move Washington HAS to make.
    "I'd knock your brains out, then pick them up later."

    -Marion Motley

  10. #50
       
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bengals1181 View Post
    RG3 showed up at the combine a surprising 6'2"
    OMG. How did the Sports Information Director ever get away with listing his ACTUAL height? Fire the bum.

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